Cannot escape Curse Forced Gay

A place to post about the success you've had with the various files

Moderator: EMG

Postby ftslave67 » September 3rd, 2009, 6:59 pm

Alien4420 wrote:
I'm going to be old in a few years and who wants an old TV?


Ya never know! You can't let a little thing like age stop you from getting what you want. Dude, I'm already old & I haven't given up yet!

I know you're a smart guy, and I'll bet you're better-looking than you think.
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Postby Alien4420 » September 3rd, 2009, 7:59 pm

hypnoslave85 wrote:I have just downloaded it again and have saved it to my mobileharddrive this time iam feel compeled to listen to it now . its strange iam getting aroused just by thinking about listening to it i shall try 2 keep every one up 2 date with my progress as i have thought bout this i left my fast post on here and have decided to go throuhg with this rather than trying to resist

hypnoslave85


Good luck

Though it sounds like you're already well on your way, little luck required!
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Postby Alien4420 » September 3rd, 2009, 8:08 pm

ftslave67 wrote:
Alien4420 wrote:
I'm going to be old in a few years and who wants an old TV?


Ya never know! You can't let a little thing like age stop you from getting what you want. Dude, I'm already old & I haven't given up yet!

I know you're a smart guy, and I'll bet you're better-looking than you think.


Heh, thanks. Maybe I am being too cautious. Anyway, it may be moot, since I listened to the file earlier. Not really a surprise, I've done a pretty good job of fending it off but I never really could shake the thing, and every time I give in it gets a bit stronger. But I'll try not to listen tomorrow, I still haven't listened very many times so I'm hoping the compulsion to listen isn't unbreakable.
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Postby MN_FriendlyGuy » September 3rd, 2009, 9:12 pm

It's kind of addictive, isn't it?


But it feels good... a good addiction


So why stop?
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Postby Jeshi » September 3rd, 2009, 11:57 pm

MN_FriendlyGuy wrote:It's kind of addictive, isn't it?


But it feels good... a good addiction


So why stop?


I recognize that line of dialog from one of ThobbyBobbys files.
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Postby hypnoslave85 » September 4th, 2009, 5:07 am

I LISTENED TO CFG AGAIN AS I WENT TO SLEEP LAST NIGHT AND WHEN I WOKE UP THIS MORNING ALL I COULD THINK ABOUT WAS COCK THIS THE FIRST TIME THATS HAPPENED SO FAR I THINK I MIGHT GO AND HAVE ANOTHER LISTEN NOW , I ASLO RELIASED SHORTLY BEFORE I WENT UNDER WAS THAT EMG'S VOICE WAS OR SHOULD THAT BE IS SO AROUSEING DOSE ANY ONE ELSE FELL THE SAME WAY BOUT EMG'S VOICE

HYPNOSLAVE85[/b]
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Postby Alien4420 » September 4th, 2009, 9:10 am

hypnoslave85 wrote:I ASLO RELIASED SHORTLY BEFORE I WENT UNDER WAS THAT EMG'S VOICE WAS OR SHOULD THAT BE IS SO AROUSEING DOSE ANY ONE ELSE FELL THE SAME WAY BOUT EMG'S VOICE

HYPNOSLAVE85[/b]


You're responding to a suggestion in the file!

You're really doing great with this, I think you're responding more quickly and more thoroughly than I did, or than the others who described their experiences here.
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Postby Alien4420 » September 4th, 2009, 9:37 am

MN_FriendlyGuy wrote:It's kind of addictive, isn't it?


But it feels good... a good addiction


So why stop?


Oh, it feels so good. I'm not even sure why, the suggestions in the file are sort of all over the place from you'll be humiliated to you'll love it, but for some reason I end up loving it.

I'm still going to try not to listen, though, as Stereoxchild points out you have to deal with reality. Though I have a feeling that my reluctance has more to do with the humiliation factor than with practicality, I feel kind of inadequate as it is and while I could deal with part time dressing I'm having trouble dealing with being fem/dressing full time in front of friends and family.

I wish I was the kind of person who could say "I'm gay" or "I'm a sissy" and be cool with it, but I lack the self-confidence for that. I almost -- this is kind of weird, but I almost wish I could be another person -- like there are people out there who are t girls or whatever, I accept them as like that, I think it's pretty cool that they're like that and I can imagine being one of them but not *me* being that way, if that makes sense.

I know it's weird, but it's as if there's this guy named Alien and there are certain expectations that he has to meet, or try to meet, I think that's because I was a weird kid and always under intense pressure to be more "normal," but whatever the reason it's really hard for me to let go.
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Postby hypnoslave85 » September 4th, 2009, 12:55 pm

OH MY GOD I CANT BELIEVEIT I'VE JUST JOINED A GAY CHAT ROOM/DATING SITE AND PUT MYSELF DOWN AS CURIUOS LOOKING AT SOME OF PICTURES I FOUND MYSELF GETTING HARD AND LICKING MY LIPS AT THE SITE OF ALL THOSE PICS OF HARD MUSCULRA BODIES. I LISTENED TO CFG ON REPEAT FOR BOUT THREE HALF HOURS AND OH GOD EMG'S VOICE IS SO DREAMY IAM GETTING THINKING BOUT HIS VOICE IS GETTING ME HARD AND MAKING ME GO WEEK AT THE KNEES I MUST BE REALLY WEEK WILLED IF ITS AFFECTING ME MUCH ALREADY

I WISH I HAD A COCK TO SUCK ON RIGHT NOW

YOU MAY BE ASKING UR SELF DOSE HE REALLY WANT THIS WELL YES I DO NOW . WHEN I FIRST LISTENED TO CFG I DID'NT THINK IT WOULD WORK DESPITE ALL OF THE THREADS I'VE READ BOUT THIS FILE I THOUGHT I'D JUST LISTEN IT FOR A LAUGH. I STILL FEEL ATTRACKED TO WOMEN BUT FIND MYSELF THINKING BOUT MEN MORE.

WHO WOULD OF THOUGHT IT COULD WORK THIS QUICK I'VE ONLY BEEN LISTENING TO IT EVERY OTHER DAY FORY THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS
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Postby Alien4420 » September 4th, 2009, 3:23 pm

hypnoslave85 wrote:OH MY GOD I CANT BELIEVEIT I'VE JUST JOINED A GAY CHAT ROOM/DATING SITE AND PUT MYSELF DOWN AS CURIUOS LOOKING AT SOME OF PICTURES I FOUND MYSELF GETTING HARD AND LICKING MY LIPS AT THE SITE OF ALL THOSE PICS OF HARD MUSCULRA BODIES. I LISTENED TO CFG ON REPEAT FOR BOUT THREE HALF HOURS AND OH GOD EMG'S VOICE IS SO DREAMY IAM GETTING THINKING BOUT HIS VOICE IS GETTING ME HARD AND MAKING ME GO WEEK AT THE KNEES I MUST BE REALLY WEEK WILLED IF ITS AFFECTING ME MUCH ALREADY

I WISH I HAD A COCK TO SUCK ON RIGHT NOW

YOU MAY BE ASKING UR SELF DOSE HE REALLY WANT THIS WELL YES I DO NOW . WHEN I FIRST LISTENED TO CFG I DID'NT THINK IT WOULD WORK DESPITE ALL OF THE THREADS I'VE READ BOUT THIS FILE I THOUGHT I'D JUST LISTEN IT FOR A LAUGH. I STILL FEEL ATTRACKED TO WOMEN BUT FIND MYSELF THINKING BOUT MEN MORE.

WHO WOULD OF THOUGHT IT COULD WORK THIS QUICK I'VE ONLY BEEN LISTENING TO IT EVERY OTHER DAY FORY THE LAST COUPLE OF WEEKS


Yah, we all get trapped. Has anyone ever listened to this thinking it would work? LOL. But you'll love being gay, at least, I don't know of anyone who didn't. The only time I've been unhappy was when I was trying to escape.
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Postby hypnoslave85 » September 4th, 2009, 3:37 pm

iam not even going to try to escape as i love the feeling of discovering something new. iam feeling happy for the first time in a long time i cant wait for the new me to be complete

this is the best feeling ever. iam thinking of ordering some toys to practice with b4 i go out and find myself my first lover.
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Postby Alien4420 » September 4th, 2009, 4:08 pm

hypnoslave85 wrote:iam not even going to try to escape as i love the feeling of discovering something new. iam feeling happy for the first time in a long time i cant wait for the new me to be complete

this is the best feeling ever. iam thinking of ordering some toys to practice with b4 i go out and find myself my first lover.


Yeah, it's great, isn't it? Like being a kid and discovering sex all over again.
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Postby AlanH26 » September 6th, 2009, 3:08 pm

Well I've finally succumbed after all this time; I've listened to the file a few times today, after months of resistance. I'd listened to it before but neveer really under trance.

I'm already bi but would say I'm about 85% straight. Sometimes I like men but generally I like women.

I must admit, the file does make me feel really horny but there's not been any change to me yet (not that that's a surprise after one day!). Time will tell if it works on me!
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Postby Alien4420 » September 6th, 2009, 3:24 pm

AlanH26 wrote:Well I've finally succumbed after all this time; I've listened to the file a few times today, after months of resistance. I'd listened to it before but neveer really under trance.

I'm already bi but would say I'm about 85% straight. Sometimes I like men but generally I like women.

I must admit, the file does make me feel really horny but there's not been any change to me yet (not that that's a surprise after one day!). Time will tell if it works on me!


Cool, you'll love it. Has this ever not worked on someone who can go into trance? I think you'll notice some pretty big changes in the next few weeks . . .
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Postby AlanH26 » September 6th, 2009, 3:28 pm

Well I struggle to get into trance because I end up fidgeting too much. I keep thinking whether I should uncross my arms or whether I've got an itchy eye or something.

I did notice that I totally lost concentration about 2/3s of the way in though so I think that's a good sign.
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Postby Alien4420 » September 6th, 2009, 3:43 pm

AlanH26 wrote:Well I struggle to get into trance because I end up fidgeting too much. I keep thinking whether I should uncross my arms or whether I've got an itchy eye or something.

I did notice that I totally lost concentration about 2/3s of the way in though so I think that's a good sign.


LOL, I used to go through that. It got to the point that the moment I was entering trance I'd start itching all over. Didn't interfere with the effectiveness of the trance, though, I took a hypnotist's advice and scratched the itches, at some point they'd just go away.

Another thing that happened to me is that when the induction said you'd stop paying attention to your surroundings I'd suddenly become hyperaware of every little noise instead.

But I'm finding none of this really matters much. These days I'm sometimes interrupted in the middle of a session and even that doesn't seem to matter, I just go back to it where I left off. I've also found that with a file like CFG it doesn't matter if you get everything since you're listening to it repeatedly. If your mind wanders or you come up out of trance for a bit you'll get that part the next day.
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Postby stereoxchild » September 6th, 2009, 5:44 pm

So I'm interested in what happens when you get 'bored' of this file. I mean, it's an exciting stimulation and a crazy experience. But everything gets old. So what happens when this file just doesn't do 'it' for you anymore. Do you search something similar? Or do you really keep listening, even after a year or so?

In my experience, I listen to files for max. 10 times and after that i try to find something fresh, in the same category (something that 'adds' new stuff to the first file) OR i just get tired of it and lose interest.
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Postby Alien4420 » September 6th, 2009, 6:55 pm

stereoxchild wrote:So I'm interested in what happens when you get 'bored' of this file. I mean, it's an exciting stimulation and a crazy experience. But everything gets old. So what happens when this file just doesn't do 'it' for you anymore. Do you search something similar? Or do you really keep listening, even after a year or so?

In my experience, I listen to files for max. 10 times and after that i try to find something fresh, in the same category (something that 'adds' new stuff to the first file) OR i just get tired of it and lose interest.


I've probably listened to CFG about 100 times now. The file itself never bores me, which is interesting because I've found some other files excruciatingly boring on multiple listenings. I just sort of zone out, go into a deep trance. And I'm a lot hornier now than I was when I wasn't listening, so in that respect I'm glad to be back to it.

Still, yah, there is something special about a new file. I've listened to Stroke Sissy for the last four days, I'm probably up to a lifetime total of 8 or 9 listens, and it's amazing and astounding. If I hadn't already been hooked on that I think I'd have chosen something that wears off after a few months so I could try something new, not to mention something a bit less scary, maybe something that turns you into a parakeet for 30 seconds when Barack Obama stands on his head and recites the Republican Party platform, LOL.

EDIT -- I guess I should add that I was wondering the same thing you were, I mean, if it wears off with time and you have to start listening to it again after it starts to wear off, does that mean you end up listening to it forever?
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Postby Melk77 » September 6th, 2009, 11:04 pm

I think it would be pretty cool to be talking to someone before listening to CFG and during and watching the transformation over time, even the cycles of listening, not listening...
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Postby ftslave67 » September 7th, 2009, 8:20 am

Melk, if you haven't already done so, read "The forced gay success thread...
" You can see it happening there (although it's not "live")
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Postby Melk77 » September 7th, 2009, 8:23 am

the forum isn't the same as live though :wink:
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Postby Alien4420 » September 7th, 2009, 10:05 am

The stereotypical gay transformation script would be great for that, you'd get to see the changes. I know that I'd do stuff I wouldn't otherwise do if there were a real life person tempting me into it, like those girlfriends who got their BF's to listen to CFG.
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Postby Melk77 » September 7th, 2009, 6:03 pm

I wasn't looking at tempting or guidance, just merely observing (though I know you can't observe someone or something without changing the results.) Just find that kind of stuff an interesting persuit. Out of curiousity though, you guys try to reverse the file by listening to forced straight or just not listening at all...has anyone tried a curse removal from EMG?
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Postby Alien4420 » September 7th, 2009, 6:51 pm

Melk77 wrote:I wasn't looking at tempting or guidance, just merely observing (though I know you can't observe someone or something without changing the results.) Just find that kind of stuff an interesting persuit. Out of curiousity though, you guys try to reverse the file by listening to forced straight or just not listening at all...has anyone tried a curse removal from EMG?


Guess not, at least when I looked he didn't have one listed. I did listen to Deprogram All at one point, it worked, but the effect was gone the next morning and I ended up listening to Forced Gay again instead of Deprogram All. And the only reason I listened to that at all was that I'd listened to Forced Straight and the conflict between them was making me desperate.

I think part of the reason these sex curses are so powerful is that they make it so you don't want to change -- once something becomes a sexual turn-on, you just don't want to give it up. Not only did I have that with Forced Gay, but I had it with Forced Straight, hence the conflict and yo-yo effect.
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Postby Melk77 » September 7th, 2009, 7:39 pm

ahh, EMG should make a bisexual one for you then ;)
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Postby ftslave67 » September 9th, 2009, 4:35 am

There is a "train bisexual" file; I don't think there is a "curse" file yet, though.
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CFG

Postby kaiser » September 10th, 2009, 12:11 pm

I have listened to CFG a few times in the past. I have no desire to listen to it again, it has been about 8 months. However, I am bi-sexual leaning toward gay already. I also met a married man who is turning me into his cock whore when his wife is not around. I meet him and suck him off then he leaves....I really enjoy this. I did listen to Major Pixels, old man cock slut, quite a few times, so maybe that is affecting me more than CFG. I have a huge desire to suck off older men 40+. Especially if I suck them off and then they want nothing more with me until the next time they need a BJ.
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Postby ftslave67 » September 10th, 2009, 7:25 pm

Well, hello there, Kaiser ;)

--just teasing, I would want more than just a BJ! :D
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Re: CFG

Postby Jessica_James » September 10th, 2009, 11:57 pm

kaiser wrote:I have listened to CFG a few times in the past. I have no desire to listen to it again, it has been about 8 months. However, I am bi-sexual leaning toward gay already. I also met a married man who is turning me into his cock whore when his wife is not around. I meet him and suck him off then he leaves....I really enjoy this. I did listen to Major Pixels, old man cock slut, quite a few times, so maybe that is affecting me more than CFG. I have a huge desire to suck off older men 40+. Especially if I suck them off and then they want nothing more with me until the next time they need a BJ.


Hav you tried listening to my file Cock Slut Queen? I think you might enjoy that one.

Have fun, JJ.
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Postby jcrud » September 11th, 2009, 3:06 am

were can i find that file
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Postby MYTY90 » September 11th, 2009, 5:54 am

Its in the sexual section under curses
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Jessica James

Postby kaiser » September 11th, 2009, 9:39 am

I have not and am not into feminization. I merely like being used sexually by men. I can not seem to locate the file, but judging by the title, cock slut QUEEN, i would guess it has some feiminization undertones to it. I simply want a man to use me for his own personal pleasure and show me absolutely no signs of respect, care or love.
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Postby Alien4420 » September 11th, 2009, 10:07 am

How about Train Cock Slave? "You are a cock slave. You are enslaved by your need for cock, and you will do whatever it takes to get it" etc. It also makes you want to swallow cum, I edited that out since I didn't want the risk.
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Postby jcrud » September 11th, 2009, 10:50 am

love that file wish i knew how to edit the begining and ending so i could loop it,i want to loop it while sleeping over nite if that is safe
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Postby Alien4420 » September 11th, 2009, 12:20 pm

Download Audacity, it's free and gives you basic editing tools, it's a bit funky but not hard to use and the online tutorials should have you up and running pretty quickly. Or easier still download the body and set your player to loop.
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Re: Jessica James

Postby Jessica_James » September 11th, 2009, 5:00 pm

kaiser wrote:I have not and am not into feminization. I merely like being used sexually by men. I can not seem to locate the file, but judging by the title, cock slut QUEEN, i would guess it has some feiminization undertones to it. I simply want a man to use me for his own personal pleasure and show me absolutely no signs of respect, care or love.


Actually Cock Slut Queen is not a feminization file it just creates an overwhelming desire for cocks, it will have you wanting to suck them and have them fuck your arse as often as possible.

It's actually filed under inductions (my mistake when uploading) have a read of the comments and see what you think. And if you want to you can download it here http://www.warpmymind.com/modules.php?name=Files_Search&Search=&file=index&op=PlayFile&ftype=1&fid=1123

Have Fun, JJ
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Postby MN_FriendlyGuy » September 11th, 2009, 6:38 pm

jcrud wrote:love that file wish i knew how to edit the begining and ending so i could loop it,i want to loop it while sleeping over nite if that is safe
sissy jami


Yes, it's safe to loop a favorite recording while sleeping overnight.

I'm trying to think of a faster way to get bored of something.

Nope. That's the fastest way.


Be good to yourself! Let your sleep be restful sleep.

And even your unconscious mind understands the philosophy "Leave 'em wanting more"

Get your sleep and then listen before getting out of bed. I think you'll be surprised at how it shapes the day ahead of you.
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Re: Jessica James

Postby kaiser » September 12th, 2009, 11:02 am

Jessica_James wrote:
Actually Cock Slut Queen is not a feminization file it just creates an overwhelming desire for cocks, it will have you wanting to suck them and have them fuck your arse as often as possible.

It's actually filed under inductions (my mistake when uploading) have a read of the comments and see what you think. And if you want to you can download it here http://www.warpmymind.com/modules.php?name=Files_Search&Search=&file=index&op=PlayFile&ftype=1&fid=1123

Have Fun, JJ


I am downloading it, but I am not sure if I really want to go that far. I already have the desire to suck cock as much as I can...not sure I need a file to increase the desire....
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Postby Ryan83 » September 13th, 2009, 5:18 am

I listened to CFG a couple of times yesterday and am about to listen again right now. Already I think I may be becoming addicted. We'll see what happens.
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Postby Alien4420 » September 13th, 2009, 6:17 am

Good luck. If you want to back out do it within the first few weeks because as far as I know this file has worked on everyone who's tried it.
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Re: Jessica James

Postby Jessica_James » September 13th, 2009, 3:35 pm

kaiser wrote:
I am downloading it, but I am not sure if I really want to go that far. I already have the desire to suck cock as much as I can...not sure I need a file to increase the desire....


Go on Dear, Do it. I'm sure you will enjoy the new passion you will find in cocksucking, I'm sure your partner will to.

Have Fun JJ :twisted:
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Postby Ryan83 » September 13th, 2009, 11:16 pm

Alien4420 wrote:Good luck. If you want to back out do it within the first few weeks because as far as I know this file has worked on everyone who's tried it.

You're right. I don't want this. At all. I'm not going to listen to it again.

Thank you.
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Progress

Postby angelcraves » September 14th, 2009, 12:48 am

Ryan, June 28th you were referring to listening to this file again and keeping people up to date with any progress on the cfg thread.
June/July/August/September.
Its been on your mind, or getting listened to for 3 months.
I think you need to think about what you want, what do you dream of when you are asleep. What is your reaction to the word gay or hot guys, what sort of porn is on your machine, muscles, when you are aroused do you ever look at your own cock (have you tried it) etc..
good luck.
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Re: Progress

Postby Ryan83 » September 14th, 2009, 12:53 am

angelcraves wrote:Ryan, June 28th you were referring to listening to this file again and keeping people up to date with any progress on the cfg thread.
June/July/August/September.
Its been on your mind, or getting listened to for 3 months.
I think you need to think about what you want, what do you dream of when you are asleep. What is your reaction to the word gay or hot guys, what sort of porn is on your machine, muscles, when you are aroused do you ever look at your own cock (have you tried it) etc..
good luck.

Yes, to be fair, I was listening to it a bit back then (once or twice). But I haven't really listened to it since.

I am afraid that hypnosis has already had an effect on my sexuality. I started screwing around with this stuff years ago, though I never listened to one file exclusively for any significant period of time. I bounced around and experimented with a bunch. But I'm afraid the damage is well beyond done, and I'm probably gay for good.

I started listening to CFG a couple of days ago because I wanted to finally accept this, because the damage these files have done has completely destroyed my life. I mean completely. So I figured it was time to finally just accept being gay and move on.

But now I'm reclaiming my life. Somehow, some way, I will get back to who I was, or I will die trying.
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Postby joe » September 14th, 2009, 7:03 am


I am afraid that hypnosis has already had an effect on my sexuality.


i was one of the many-headed throng of those who claimed 'hypnosis isn't working, hypnosis isn't working' when i was listening to CFG. here it is years later and i don't listen to the file any longer, but it has had irrevocable effects on my thought process and orientation. to be clear, i've yet to experience sex with any gender, but my tending is almost always towards men. at work, when a co-worker will ask me what i think of the hot girl in green who just walked down the street, i'll realize i don't know what i think of her - in fact, i didn't even see her! i was too busy staring at the guy in white across the road - you know, one of those super-masculine low-class white wannabe-thugs that get my heart churning and my palms moist...

and on a completely different tangent, before i even listened to CFG, i was listening to TrainTotalJock - mostly the first installment, though i believe the third in the trilogy was originally my proposal on the voting page (wow i've been here awhile) - and claiming the same, hypnosis don't work on me - and yet, here i am having dropped out of college (for a myriad of reasons, some of which are inexplicable) and waiting tables at a local, mid-level bar. it doesn't seem to have affected my intelligence overmuch, yet there was a time when i lost all interest in going to class or doing work and all i did was hang out in a friend's dorm room, drinking cheap vodka and cheaper beer - the closest i imagine i let myself get to joining a fraternity.

so... caveat audiens!
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Re: Progress

Postby Alien4420 » September 14th, 2009, 10:45 am

Ryan83 wrote:I started listening to CFG a couple of days ago because I wanted to finally accept this, because the damage these files have done has completely destroyed my life. I mean completely. So I figured it was time to finally just accept being gay and move on.

But now I'm reclaiming my life. Somehow, some way, I will get back to who I was, or I will die trying.


Ryan, if it's destroyed your life, that's wrong, it's gone too far. What I suggest is that you see a professional hypnotist right away. Hypnotic suggestions can be removed as readily as they can be made and from what I've read a pro should be able to clean this stuff out in an afternoon.
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Postby Alien4420 » September 14th, 2009, 11:12 am

joe wrote:so... caveat audiens!


Now he tells me, LOL.
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Postby joe » September 14th, 2009, 12:30 pm

Alien4420 wrote:
joe wrote:so... caveat audiens!


Now he tells me, LOL.


EMG tells us, too, at the beginning of every file, yet we go right on ahead
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Postby Alien4420 » September 14th, 2009, 8:22 pm

joe wrote:EMG tells us, too, at the beginning of every file, yet we go right on ahead


I think part of it is that we've all been told that hypnosis can't make you do something you wouldn't ordinarily do, even though that's BS . . . and that it's very hard to believe that someone can control your mind with a few words, even with your acquiescence. So people treat these sites, and the warnings, as a joke at first, or an amusing turn-on. And if you've listened to some hypnosis files a few times and they didn't work or you rejected or threw off the suggestions -- I've done that often enough, and I think it gave me false confidence, when I started listening to Forced Gay it was like "OK, so maybe I'll end up liking men, but I can always wiggle out of these suggestions about not liking women."
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Postby baseball28 » September 14th, 2009, 9:23 pm

What types of behavioral expectations can I expect from the use of this file? Obviously sexual orientation is changed, but, for example, what would people who know you the best see you as having changed aside from orientation/
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