Have you been taken under against your will?

[hypnoteen]

Has this ever happened to anyone? Maybe with someone who is incredibly skilled at hypnosis, or with covert techniques?

A>

[sleepyslut]

My first time i didn't consent ahead of time, it sort of snuck up on me.

[hexagon77]

Well i had it happen the other way around, i talk to someone, just chatting, and then that person slipped into a trance without me doing anything.

Either they wanted to be tranced really badly, and our talk about it allowed that person to drop under, or it was all a huge fake - who really knows ;)

[Tangy]

Hay maybe we are under right now and posting against or Will Who knows?
Moving forward :?: :idea: :arrow:

[Jeshi]

While there are many times when people are hypnotized without specifically wanting to (through surprise triggers and the such), I don't know of any times when someone has gone under when they very specifically did not want to. That tends to be how hypnosis works, you can get people to do things they would otherwise be indifferent to (such as silly things that they'd have no reason not to do, but no reason to do either) but not things that they'd object to.

For me, even if I've "tried to resist" I've always really be willing deep down, just "resisting" to make it more fun. Sometimes though people have tried and failed because they were so bad at it that even if they used a trigger my brain would just decide that they were too stupid for it to work.

[PowerHoden]

[quote="Jeshi"]While there are many times when people are hypnotized without specifically wanting to (through surprise triggers and the such), I don't know of any times when someone has gone under when they very specifically did not want to. That tends to be how hypnosis works, you can get people to do things they would otherwise be indifferent to (such as silly things that they'd have no reason not to do, but no reason to do either) but not things that they'd object to.

For me, even if I've "tried to resist" I've always really be willing deep down, just "resisting" to make it more fun. Sometimes though people have tried and failed because they were so bad at it that even if they used a trigger my brain would just decide that they were too stupid for it to work.[/quote]


The point is how you define "specifically don't want to"?

He might don't want to in general but is not aware of beeing hypnotised because of a lack of knowledge.

For example there is a case from spain where a hypnotiseur robbed a market because he hypnotized the cashier.

[Jeshi]

[quote="PowerHoden":42/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i22c81][quote="Jeshi":42/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i22c81]While there are many times when people are hypnotized without specifically wanting to (through surprise triggers and the such), I don't know of any times when someone has gone under when they very specifically did not want to. That tends to be how hypnosis works, you can get people to do things they would otherwise be indifferent to (such as silly things that they'd have no reason not to do, but no reason to do either) but not things that they'd object to.

For me, even if I've "tried to resist" I've always really be willing deep down, just "resisting" to make it more fun. Sometimes though people have tried and failed because they were so bad at it that even if they used a trigger my brain would just decide that they were too stupid for it to work.[/quote:42/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i22c81]


The point is how you define "specifically don't want to"?

He might don't want to in general but is not aware of beeing hypnotised because of a lack of knowledge.

For example there is a case from spain where a hypnotiseur robbed a market because he hypnotized the cashier.[/quote:42/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i22c81]

There's a lot of those stories where robbers "hypnotize people" and so far I don't really know if they should be believes or not. It's very likely that someone stole the money themselves then blamed it on some made-up "hypnotist robber" or something. That way they didn't have control over it and can't be blamed.

The way you can tell if someone was okay with doing something or not before they were hypnotized, is that if they did it they were okay with it on some level. When people are told to do things that they really don't want to do, then they don't do them. They either ignore the suggestion or snap awake.

The same goes for being hypnotized. If they're actually really not at all okay with being hypnotized, if they aren't cooperating, then the inductions won't work.

[qv]

[quote="Jeshi"][quote="PowerHoden"][quote="Jeshi"]While there are many times when people are hypnotized without specifically wanting to (through surprise triggers and the such), I don't know of any times when someone has gone under when they very specifically did not want to. That tends to be how hypnosis works, you can get people to do things they would otherwise be indifferent to (such as silly things that they'd have no reason not to do, but no reason to do either) but not things that they'd object to.

For me, even if I've "tried to resist" I've always really be willing deep down, just "resisting" to make it more fun. Sometimes though people have tried and failed because they were so bad at it that even if they used a trigger my brain would just decide that they were too stupid for it to work.[/quote]


The point is how you define "specifically don't want to"?

He might don't want to in general but is not aware of beeing hypnotised because of a lack of knowledge.

For example there is a case from spain where a hypnotiseur robbed a market because he hypnotized the cashier.[/quote]

There's a lot of those stories where robbers "hypnotize people" and so far I don't really know if they should be believes or not. It's very likely that someone stole the money themselves then blamed it on some made-up "hypnotist robber" or something. That way they didn't have control over it and can't be blamed.

The way you can tell if someone was okay with doing something or not before they were hypnotized, is that if they did it they were okay with it on some level. When people are told to do things that they really don't want to do, then they don't do them. They either ignore the suggestion or snap awake.

The same goes for being hypnotized. If they're actually really not at all okay with being hypnotized, if they aren't cooperating, then the inductions won't work.[/quote]

...eeehhhhhhh, for those with healthy personal boundaries, yeah. But most people aren't very in-tune with their subconscious minds... to the extent that their subconscious doesn't really even know how to think for itself. Possibly thanks to suggestions to be blank, obedient, etc., I don't know.

I just mean that if a person isn't sure what to believe, it's simply a matter of getting them to believe they want to be used. Not a healthy worldview by any stretch of the imagination, which normally should get picked up on by the subconscious, but, work in sufficient trauma...

Then, of course, there's the matter of fact that people can enter trance out of reflex, thinking or not. That's sometimes the point of triggers: you don't want a subject thinking about it, you want them doing it. If you sink in a trigger deep enough, you may very well make it reflexive, whether desired at the moment or not. Consider the warnings about operating heavy machinery, for instance: there have been legitimate cases where people trance in unhealthy situations, seemingly without considering the danger of the situation. They may want to be hypnotized, but I would sure hope none would actually be 'willing' to trance if it means lives may be on the line.

...so as for the question "Can people be taken under against their will", yes, though semantically it comes down to the fact that will can be shaped more than anything. That, and reflexive response... if you see a guy masturbating, are you willing to get hard? Or is it even a matter of will at this point?

Q.E.D.

[Tangy]

[quote="hypnoteen"]Has this ever happened to anyone? Maybe with someone who is incredibly skilled at hypnosis, or with covert techniques?:evil: :twisted:

A>[/quote]

Impossible to take you under against your will it takes hours to just trance.

[Midnight68652]

that's not entirely true tangy. I hypnotize people in 5-10 minutes myself (induction trance and awake in all) Admittedly i use a temporary form that wears off if not exposed to it. But there are Subtle forms of hypnotism that doesn't rely on induction. They just make your subconscious focus on certain words in a conversation (works best in person and a lot use touch at the key words). Thus you can be hypnotized without knowing.

While it is impossible to induce somebody who doesn't want to. It is possible to hypnotize somebody who doesn't want to. The induction can be countered by their lack of focus. Though if you can talk them into going through the induction even the most resistant can be hypnotized without them wanting to be.

There is one person I hypnotized when it wasn't going to work. I hypnotized him over the phone and it only appeared to half work. But after a bit of prodding by using the commands his mind got used to the idea and addicted to being controlled. Now his hypnotism has wore off completely but he has been turned from a dom personality into a sub.

Though There is a select few that can't be hypnotized whether they want to or not. Ether from Add (or Adhd) or because of how they focus(like me) it just induction just doesn't work on them. See when I focus I have to repeat it in my mind what is being said or talk in my head what I'm doing. While this makes multitasking a bitch it makes me able to Selectively focus on different things in moments of time. I can down out other stuff or flash between different things (like chats or games) but while it is useful in that regard it makes it impossible to induce me.

Though I've never tested it with a real live in person hypnotist. I really want to.

[Tangy]

[quote="Midnight68652"]that's not entirely true tangy. I hypnotize people in 5-1/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i minutes myself (induction trance and awake in all) Admittedly i use a temporary form that wears off if not exposed to it. But there are Subtle forms of hypnotism that doesn't rely on induction. They just make your subconscious focus on certain words in a conversation (works best in person and a lot use touch at the key words). Thus you can be hypnotized without knowing.

While it is impossible to induce somebody who doesn't want to. It is possible to hypnotize somebody who doesn't want to. The induction can be countered by their lack of focus. Though if you can talk them into going through the induction even the most resistant can be hypnotized without them wanting to be.

There is one person I hypnotized when it wasn't going to work. I hypnotized him over the phone and it only appeared to half work. But after a bit of prodding by using the commands his mind got used to the idea and addicted to being controlled. Now his hypnotism has wore off completely but he has been turned from a dom personality into a sub.

Though There is a select few that can't be hypnotized whether they want to or not. Ether from Add (or Adhd) or because of how they focus(like me) it just induction just doesn't work on them. See when I focus I have to repeat it in my mind what is being said or talk in my head what I'm doing. While this makes multitasking a bitch it makes me able to Selectively focus on different things in moments of time. I can down out other stuff or flash between different things (like chats or games) but while it is useful in that regard it makes it impossible to induce me.

Though I've never tested it with a real live in person hypnotist. I really want to.[/quote]

i am one of those people who can not be hypnotized against my will

[Tangy]

[quote="Tangy"][quote="Midnight68652"]that's not entirely true tangy. I hypnotize people in 5-1/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i minutes myself (induction trance and awake in all) Admittedly i use a temporary form that wears off if not exposed to it. But there are Subtle forms of hypnotism that doesn't rely on induction. They just make your subconscious focus on certain words in a conversation (works best in person and a lot use touch at the key words). Thus you can be hypnotized without knowing.

While it is impossible to induce somebody who doesn't want to. It is possible to hypnotize somebody who doesn't want to. The induction can be countered by their lack of focus. Though if you can talk them into going through the induction even the most resistant can be hypnotized without them wanting to be.

There is one person I hypnotized when it wasn't going to work. I hypnotized him over the phone and it only appeared to half work. But after a bit of prodding by using the commands his mind got used to the idea and addicted to being controlled. Now his hypnotism has wore off completely but he has been turned from a dom personality into a sub.

Though There is a select few that can't be hypnotized whether they want to or not. Ether from Add (or Adhd) or because of how they focus(like me) it just induction just doesn't work on them. See when I focus I have to repeat it in my mind what is being said or talk in my head what I'm doing. While this makes multitasking a bitch it makes me able to Selectively focus on different things in moments of time. I can down out other stuff or flash between different things (like chats or games) but while it is useful in that regard it makes it impossible to induce me.

Though I've never tested it with a real live in person hypnotist. I really want to.[/quote]

i am one of those people who can not be hypnotized against my will
Scalar and Matrix Multiplication (page 1 of 3)

There are two types of multiplication for matrices: scalar multiplication and matrix multiplication. Scalar multiplication is easy. You just take a regular number (called a "scalar") and multiply it on every entry in the matrix.

For the following matrix A, find 2A and –1A.

A = [[ 1 2 ][ 3 4 ]]

To do the first scalar multiplication to find 2A, I just multiply a 2 on every entry in the matrix:

2A = 2 × [[ 1 2 ][ 3 4 ]] = [[ 2×1 2×2 ][ 2×3 2×4 ]] = [[ 2 4 ][ 6 8 ]]

The other scalar multiplication, to find –1A, works the same way:

-1A = -1 × [[ 1 2 ][ 3 4 ]] = [[ -1×1 -1×2 ][ -1×3 -1×4 ]] = [[ -1 -2 ][ -3 -4 ]]

So the final answer is:

2A = [[ 2 4 ][ 6 8 ]]

-1A = [[ -1 -2 ][ -3 -4 ]]

Scalar multiplication is easy. Matrix multiplication, however, is quite another story. In fact, it's a royal pain. Your text probably gave you a complex formula for the process, and that formula probably didn't make any sense to you. That's okay. The process is messy, and that complicated formula is the best they can do for an explanation in a formal setting like a textbook. Here's how the process works:

Find the product AB for the following matrices:

A = [[ 1 /\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i -2 ][ /\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i 3 -1 ]] , B = [[ /\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i 3 ][ -2 -1 ][ /\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i 4 ]]

To calculate AB, I write down A and B next to each other like this:

[[ 1 /\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i -2 ][ /\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i 3 -1 ]] × [[ /\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i 3 ][ -2 -1 ][ /\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i 4 ]]

Now I need to multiply the ROWS of A by the COLUMNS of B. By this I mean that I first take the first row of A and the first column of B, and I multiply the first entries, then the second entries, and then the third entries, and then I add the three products. The sum is one entry in the product matrix AB; in fact, being the product of row 1 and column 1, the result is the 1,1-entry of AB. Then I continue in like manner. For instance, the sum of the products from row 2 of A and column 1 of B is the 2,1-entry of AB.

When I multiply matrices, I use my fingers to keep track of what I'm doing. The following animation is my attempt to illustrate this process. (Don't laugh; I'm no artist!)

Demonstration of how to use your fingers to keep track of the multiplications.

(Now, class; what did I say about laughing?)

The final answer is:

AB = [[ /\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i -5 ][ -6 -7 ]]

As you saw on the above example, the general rule is that the product of the i-th row of A and the j-th column of B is the i,j-th entry of the product matrix AB. This general rule is, in large part, what that complicated formula in your text was all about.

For instance, when I, in the above example, multiplied the first row (of A) and the second column (of B), this gave me the first-row-second-column entry in the product matrix AB.
>>

C

[demigraff]

[quote="Tangy":c12f4/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i34]Scalar and Matrix Multiplication (page 1 of 3)[/quote:c12f4/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i34]

I should point out that this article is © Elizabeth Stapel, and publishing it on a forum is in explicitly in violation of the terms of use.

[mindslave67]

I think Tangy's latest response hypnotized me against my will.

I'm confused, lost about 5 minutes of my life, can no longer do math, and feel dumber than I did before I read all that, none of which I wanted to happen before I clicked on this thread.

-----

In all honesty, I really enjoy the fantasy of being hypnotized against my will (by sexy people for sexy purposes), but I have enough trouble just getting into good trances that I doubt it could happen to me.

I do believe a certain portion of the populace is so "open" as to be easily hypnotized whether they want to be or not. I also believe that once you are sufficiently conditioned by a hypnotist, then that hypnotist can put you into trance whether you want to be or not. These are just beliefs based upon my own reading. I have no absolute proof, other than what Tangy's post did to me.

[zapnosis]

I reckon it is possible to use mind control on someone who is resisting you all the way, but... it would be very unpleasant, difficult and costly since you would effective have to kidnap someone and psychologically torture them. Why do all that? A good ol' fashioned threat usually does the job, or so I understand.

I'm always slightly amused when people raise the issue of "mind control against your will". Human reactions are predictable, so the art of mind control isn't to put someone in a situation where they can't resist... it's to put someone in a situation where they won't resist. Beyond that, it's not really mind control. Also it's nicer, easier, more fun and there's less mess to clean up.

ZAP

[Knitted]

Interesting question :)

I've come a long way in being able to trance...

But what I find is... I trance better when it happens unexpectedly.

Master has worked on me for months now and frankly... I'm not sure what goes on in my mind anymore. Like at all. He does use NLP techniques, but I don't know anything about nlp so I dunno how.

I just noticed that... he sort of talks in circles. And suddenly I feel the trance creeping in on me. But I also don't resist. I am sure if i resisted, I would snap out immediately.

[Tangy]

[quote="Knitted"]Interesting question :)

I've come a long way in being able to trance...

But what I find is... I trance better when it happens unexpectedly.

Master has worked on me for months now and frankly... I'm not sure what goes on in my mind anymore. Like at all. He does use NLP techniques, but I don't know anything about nlp so I dunno how.

I just noticed that... he sort of talks in circles. And suddenly I feel the trance creeping in on me. But I also don't resist. I am sure if i resisted, I would snap out immediately.[/quote]


Explane to me exactly how you feel when the trance starts to come :o . how your head feels are you sleepy what mood you are in those type of things you will help us all.

[slutinmyhead]

We spend over half our lives in trance. We've all gone under without awareness of it. The caveat here is 'how deep?' I've put people under deep enough to influence behavior and alter memories. This isn't even that hard to do. It's not magic.

On that note, while I don't use a lot of Elman inductions, I recommend Dave Elman's book Hypnotherapy to anyone who wants effective inductions in less than a minute. These are mostly shock inductions and people will know you hypnotized them.

My own style uses NLP, Ericksonian style stories, priming and exploitation of various heuristics and logical fallacies. Some may argue this is not hypnosis per se, but the effects are similar. It's ultimately about influencing thought and behavior... or in my case, getting paranoid, psychotic patients to take their meds...

[Alien4420]

Many years ago, before I had ever been in trance, a psychologist tried to put me in trance without telling me. I recognized what was happening, and shook it off.

That seems to me unscrupulous but the point is that for me, anyway, it didn't work. Perhaps a subtler approach would have, I don't know. Or if I hadn't caught on to what was happening.

But I agree with what someone said, if you have a serous objection to something you'll ignore the suggestion or pop out of trance. Some level of consent is necessary with straightforward suggestion. I understand that it is possible to bypass that by changing someone's beliefs, e.g., rather than ordering someone to kill their grandfather the hypnotist would convince them that if they don't kill their grandfather their grandfather will kill them. As far as I know no approach is completely effective, but I have been forced to do some things that I really didn't want, after listening to a file many times. I thought I could just ignore the objectionable suggestions but they nibble away at you and if you listen too often you can eventually be influenced.

Another thing I've noticed is that when I am forced to do something that I really don't want, I keep fighting it. Part of me says that it's better to just accept it and be done with the struggle but I don't know how to make that happen, as long as I think it can be undone I don't want to do that.

[ProfessorPig]

[quote="Jeshi"][quote="PowerHoden"][quote="Jeshi"]While there are many times when people are hypnotized without specifically wanting to (through surprise triggers and the such), I don't know of any times when someone has gone under when they very specifically did not want to. That tends to be how hypnosis works, you can get people to do things they would otherwise be indifferent to (such as silly things that they'd have no reason not to do, but no reason to do either) but not things that they'd object to.

For me, even if I've "tried to resist" I've always really be willing deep down, just "resisting" to make it more fun. Sometimes though people have tried and failed because they were so bad at it that even if they used a trigger my brain would just decide that they were too stupid for it to work.[/quote]


The point is how you define "specifically don't want to"?

He might don't want to in general but is not aware of beeing hypnotised because of a lack of knowledge.

For example there is a case from spain where a hypnotiseur robbed a market because he hypnotized the cashier.[/quote]

There's a lot of those stories where robbers "hypnotize people" and so far I don't really know if they should be believes or not. It's very likely that someone stole the money themselves then blamed it on some made-up "hypnotist robber" or something. That way they didn't have control over it and can't be blamed.

The way you can tell if someone was okay with doing something or not before they were hypnotized, is that if they did it they were okay with it on some level. When people are told to do things that they really don't want to do, then they don't do them. They either ignore the suggestion or snap awake.

The same goes for being hypnotized. If they're actually really not at all okay with being hypnotized, if they aren't cooperating, then the inductions won't work.[/quote]


I have heard references to those hypno robber stories as well. they are always vague on the details so its hard to comment. i could see it possibly working with the suggestion that you received the wrong amount of change. i have trouble picturing anyone getting away with too much money from that though.

[Jeshi]

[quote="somehopper":dabf7a3/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i][quote="Jeshi":dabf7a3/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i][quote="PowerHoden":dabf7a3/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i][quote="Jeshi":dabf7a3/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i]While there are many times when people are hypnotized without specifically wanting to (through surprise triggers and the such), I don't know of any times when someone has gone under when they very specifically did not want to. That tends to be how hypnosis works, you can get people to do things they would otherwise be indifferent to (such as silly things that they'd have no reason not to do, but no reason to do either) but not things that they'd object to.

For me, even if I've "tried to resist" I've always really be willing deep down, just "resisting" to make it more fun. Sometimes though people have tried and failed because they were so bad at it that even if they used a trigger my brain would just decide that they were too stupid for it to work.[/quote:dabf7a3/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i]


The point is how you define "specifically don't want to"?

He might don't want to in general but is not aware of beeing hypnotised because of a lack of knowledge.

For example there is a case from spain where a hypnotiseur robbed a market because he hypnotized the cashier.[/quote:dabf7a3/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i]

There's a lot of those stories where robbers "hypnotize people" and so far I don't really know if they should be believes or not. It's very likely that someone stole the money themselves then blamed it on some made-up "hypnotist robber" or something. That way they didn't have control over it and can't be blamed.

The way you can tell if someone was okay with doing something or not before they were hypnotized, is that if they did it they were okay with it on some level. When people are told to do things that they really don't want to do, then they don't do them. They either ignore the suggestion or snap awake.

The same goes for being hypnotized. If they're actually really not at all okay with being hypnotized, if they aren't cooperating, then the inductions won't work.[/quote:dabf7a3/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i]


I have heard references to those hypno robber stories as well. they are always vague on the details so its hard to comment. i could see it possibly working with the suggestion that you received the wrong amount of change. i have trouble picturing anyone getting away with too much money from that though.[/quote:dabf7a3/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i]

Derren Brown has often times robbed stores and people using his "unique combinations of NLP and conversational hypnosis" on his TV show, but his shows are dubiously real since they like to use editing magic to obscure his actual techniques. (So for instance, on the show you see him call someone and they immediately fall asleep while they play the sound of weird static, while what actually happened is he asked them if they'd like to be hypnotized for television then led them through an induction which they sped up. Or sometimes they'll have a really basic trick but he'll claim to be doing it another way that seems more impressive.)