When hypnosis goes wrong...

[Linja]

Hey, I've heard that hypnosis can be dangerous in certain circumstances.
Like if the hynotist isn't experienced and makes a mistake, or if the subject's understanding of the hypnotist's words are distorted all sorts of strange consequences can come about as a result.

This thread is for anybody who wants to share their thoughts on hypnosis where things have gone wrong for whatever reason. Just tell us what you know about when hypnosis hasn't worked out as planned. Be it a story or an event, whatever, I just wanna hear about some fuck ups.

-Linja

[Dammi]

Personally I don't think that's possible.. ( Notice ... I THINK :P )
I've studied hypnosis quite alot and everywhere there is always mentioned that nobody can make you do something that you don't want to do.

Nobody could hand you a gun and tell you too shoot a person. Even if they say that gun is a fake , I think you'd know deep inside that something was wrong. BUT if you want it.. then it happens...

Feel free to "proove" me wrong :)
And sorry for my English.. tired..

[loadedkaos]

Well I've heard stories about cults uisng hypnosis someone even said that even Hitler himself using it to undermine the decission making process of the masses they control. Although I'm sure it's more to this after all cults have drugs and brainwashing techniques they would use in tandem with the hypnosis and subliminals. And even Hitler had to use propaganda, as well as a whole mess of other things. I think any intelligent person would know if they are being taken for a ride. I would also agree with dammi about not doing anything you seriously wouldn't want to do.

[Brainiac]

I'll quote what a friend of mine told me once over email when I asked her about the adage that we can't be hypnotised into doing something we don't want to:

That is a common myth, perpetuated by the hypnotism industry. They have a bit of a catch-22, even beyond their own contradictory double-talk:There is no way to ethically test the hypothesis that "a person cannot be hypnotized to do something against his/her will". It is known that the perceived conditions surrounding a person will alter his/her reactions. A frequently cited example is that a man who would normally not consider killing anyone, will take up arms and kill other men in times of war. It is not difficult to arrange matters so that a hypnotized subject believes him/herself to be a soldier at war..... And even the most adamant of the "this can't be done" brigade will generally admit that it is possible to make someone forget his/her name and past, at least temporarily. I'll leave the implications to your imagination.

Thoughts?

[drowsydawg]

It's all kinda fuzzy, because there's "what I want" and "what my subconscious wants", and most of us can't say for sure that those are the same thing. For example, if your gut tells you you hate someone and want him dead, and you have to push those thoughts aside in day to day life, it'd probably be pretty easy for an unethical hypnotist to convince you that the murderous feelings are good and should be acted upon.... his trigger becomes your subconscious' permission to make you do the bad act.

But either way, it's still you doing it. The brainwashing defense might work to get you declared incompetent to stand trial, but most likely (c.f. Patty Hearst) it won't.

By the way, all you "straight" guys who feel the urge to turn into women after listening to the WMM files.... that's another situation where the urge was already there and you just needed permission to act upon it. Maybe a hypnotist could take a really straight guy with no interest in transgender activities, and take his attraction to women, turn it into an obsession with women, reframe that into a view of femininity as a perfect state and then convince the subject that he needs to attain that state at all costs, but that would take a lot more than listening to an mp3 off of the net.

[Cubeguru]

well i think that you know with having to listen to files over and over again its kinda like brainwashing, so it could be possible, kinda like you finally got a bondage trig working, a weird person figures it out and ties you down and take naked pictures of you.....hey you dont want to do that, but it could happen anyway.

[loadedkaos]

Brain washing usually consist of tactics like controlling what one eats, when one sleeps. As well as good cop, bad cop techniques having some one pretend to go with the program, drugs, taking advantage of the subjects weaknesses this is usually sins, or emotions such as guilt, helplessness. So it's alot more than hypnotizing someone the above methods are usually used to convince some one to go into trance weather they call it hypnosis or not(and They usually don't). With your example cubeguru, the person choosing to listen to the files would be the one responsible.. Although I guess you could say they are brainwashing themselves but it sounds silly that way. And if some one finds out and uses it that is the listeners fault because he/she chose to listen.

well i think that you know with having to listen to files over and over again its kinda like brainwashing, so it could be possible, kinda like you finally got a bondage trig working, a weird person figures it out and ties you down and take naked pictures of you.....hey you dont want to do that, but it could happen anyway.

[chuckles]

I actually think its very possible for a person to do what they specifically don't want to do, through use of hypnosis. I think it has to do with our ability to compromise. I don't think just being hypnotized once would sudnely turn a person into an amoral psychopath, but over time, a persons desire not to do a thing, could be wittled away by small compromises.

For example: a subject could be given the command to start watching more action movies. Very simple and basic, and repeditive, until action movies is all the subject wants to watch. Then they are given the command to pay attention only to the fighting scenes, specifically where people are killed, the more violent the death, the more they are to pay attention. The next command would be to imgine oneself in the movie, performing the murders, and enjoying it. And next, to emulate the behavior, getting as much enjoyment out of emulation as watching. Next the command would be to desire to actually perform the deeds on living creatures, still enjoying, the more violent, the more pleasurable. And lastly, the command to perform those same acts on a human.

Now this is a pretty abridged description of the process, and i think that there would need to be a lot of time and control over the subject, to the point that environment and social interaction would have to be controlled. But I think that it could be done eventually. Hypnosis can be a dangerous thing in the wrong hands.

[Cubeguru]

yeah but people with 'the wrong hands' dont usually have loads of time to hypnotise people over and over again into doing something they dont want to do,so its not easy

[chuckles]

Well yeah, in most cases. But think about how easily one becomes isolated, even in situations where one has regular outside ineraction. Spousal abuse is a very good example of this, even to the point of brainwashing, because a lot of the victims feel they deserved what they got, and still care for the person abusing them.

Now the systematic turning of a person into a killer is a different situation entirely, but I think roots in the same way: the slow wittleing of a persons morals by compromise. Not to say that it doesn't take a lot of effort, it problably does. But it can happen, and I think it does happen. Who her remembers Pattie Hearst? I dobn't know if she actually killed anyone, but after she was kidnapped, she became a terrorist. Now I don't pretend to know all the details, in fact all I know is that after she was rescued, she claimed she was brainwashed.

And if you think about it, Military training operates in a similar way. Especially when a person is drafted, because they have no say in whether or not they want to become a soldier. And essentially, before all other training, a soldier is taught how to kill. They are isolated, and they take part in exercises that promote violent and vicious behavior, and those who do well are rewarded. Not the same thing as hypnosis, but still their perception is manipulated to create a killer.

--------------------------------
I should be clear, right now that I have nothing against soldiers, and while I don't particularly blame them for the things they have to do, I don't envy them their job. I mean no malice toward them, and I fully apreciate the scope of the things they are meant to do. I only say this now because I know that some overly patriotic person is going to leap down my throat for saying something htat was not entirely praise for what they do.

[Brainiac]

Speaking of abused spouses, a friend of mine was walking through town one day (he's a very old school Italian man), and he saw a guy start slapping his wife, she was crying and trying to get away, so he went and knocked the guy's block off...only to have the wife jump on his back and start clawing at him and hitting him for attacking her husband. The mind sure is strange.

[loadedkaos]

Allright guys I'm gonna let you in on a little secret of the subconcious mind, it doesn't respond to force, that's why people who try to force themselves to be hypnotized will always fail. Oh that's not to say it can't be manipulated. I think hypnotizing someone to be a killer in the above way would be to straight forward. The subconcious would rebel the moment someone tried to force these thaughts on them. Yeah they would still like action movies and may even find the gruesome scenes the most enjoyable part but it doesn't mean they will become sadistic killers unless they want to be. And even then you would haft to make sure they repeat their training because something like that would not stick. I think a more reasonable and faster way to go about it would be creative hallucination unless the subject is a straight pacefist he wouldn't mind slugging a few nazis. Like wise if people think you have a special connection with god(sometimes this is done w/out hypnosis) then they are more likely to follow your decree even if it means ritual suicide.

[b-poe-01]

Hi,

Rookie here, please be gentle. :) First time posting here, though I have done hypnosis of all sorts for a while, both self-hypno and stuff with others, in email, Instant Messenger, and over the telephone.

Actually, I am in agreement with *most* of the material here so far. On the one hand, if you just *openly try* to suggest or trigger behavior that the person truly doesn't *want* or can't bear to do, you won't get jack done usually, and yes, some degree of trickery and/or attrition by repeated compromise can wear things down.

But. There is also abreaction to consider. An abreaction, to my best knowledge, is an emotional crisis that comes up when the trancer hits a *hard* limit, like being told out of the blue to kill someone. Normally, for casual or hobbyist 'tists like us, this is more trouble than what it is worth, and tends to end the trance right away, not to mention the trancer's willingness to go under again since *most* abreactions are about pent-up negative feelings (anger, terror, despair, and so on).

But...some folks on the more professional or therapeutic side are trained to *exploit* these same crises as a way to effect a change of mind that normally wouldn't be possible in a non-trance state. For instance, an abreaction might be used by an unethical hypnotist to "change" someone's sexual preference, say by associating any/all deviant and/or homosexual behavior with something the trancer finds "highly repugnant", pushing the issue, and then finally triggering the crisis that either permanently sends the "deviancy" into "remission" or de-sensitizes the person to one source of "repugnance". I have actually heard of "therapeutic" hypnotists of an evangelical bent who got paid good money to render teenagers "non-gay" or "less sexual."

Point is, hard limits can be exploited and/or abused by someone with a degree of professional training who knows how to keep a trance stable during an abreaction....the emotional release itself can be used as a tool, either to condition or to de-sensitize, either of which can wipe out moral or ethical or highly personal "hard limits" fairly quickly.

Has anyone actually *attempted* this? In my experience, I've only abreacted my online ladies *by accident* and had to abort the trance and ride out the ranting for *hours* afterward. It seems to me to be a powerful tool, one of the few in hypnosis that works quickly, and without abusing the trancer (with sleep deprivation, physical exhaustion, lack of food or other unhealthy crap that is more in line with classical torture or brainwashing).

Just my nickel (inflation, you know?)

Brad Poe

[joe]

But...some folks on the more professional or therapeutic side are trained to *exploit* these same crises as a way to effect a change of mind that normally wouldn't be possible in a non-trance state.

that's awesome, and totally along the same lines that i was thinking of. i have a lot of "abreactionary" impulse when it comes to what i want to achieve, and it's difficult to find someone who's skilled enough to be able to manipulate said reactions.

i have heard that a certain brand of hypnosis, namely, Ericksonian, is more helpful when it comes to manipulation mostly because it's intensely persuasive & very insidious. i myself have never been tranced via Ericksonian methods, but have heard many good things about it.

this abreactionary method sounds awesome, though. i'd definitely like to try that.

[b-poe-01]

Hey there,

I'm not sure that the particular knowledge is or *should* be made available to the general public, just because some of us might have *one* really bad day or something and decide to truly abuse the knowledge.

Consider a recent example from my life. Last November I had the mother of all bad days (long story short, I live in Champaign Illinois in the United States, consider myself at least rational if not always a liberal, and well, you know the rest). And for some time I had been wondering if I could write a hypnosis script, just using the repeat and relax material I had accumulated over the years as someone who gets into hypnotically turning the occasional woman into a living doll of sorts....if I could write a hypnosis script that would *spread* itself like a computer virus.

I was peeved for a month after the election of Bush. I wrote the thing, using some of the doll scripts I had written in the past and *every* dark impulse I could think of to *cram into a curse file*.

Problem was...I usually write my files in Notepad. It makes for a very compact, easy to send file that can even be read in MS-DOS if need be. ;)

But Notepad has strict size limits, and I put too much curse file type material into the thing.....at the expense of the induction. Needless to say, it doesn't induce trance half as well as my prior material. Thank goodness!

I mean, think about it, if I had known how to do these 30-second interrupt inductions people talk about on TV and if I *knew* how to exploit abreactions to my benefit, I might have become an actual real-life *supervillian* with that thing. I might have went to prison or worse over it. :oops:

But instead, it was a relative *failure* due to the limitations I work under. My mainstream change-to-Barbie script works about 50% of the time on random women, about 99% of the time on the willing. In comparision the attempted hypno-virus only worked one third as well in inducing trance, and even the women who went under with it and *didn't* recall the material were scared off by it. :oops:

Moral of the story: there is stuff out there that definitely boosts your odds of *seriously* altering someone's mind, but I am not sure I'd even trust myself with that knowledge *every day*, never mind some pay-per-reply hypno-domme who only sees an ATM when she looks at a man. (not you EMG, but you have seen the type around online quite a bit I am sure)

We are only amateurs here....I don't think we need the *sharpest* scalpels to just *play* doctor, not when a plastic butter knife might suit some of our purposes just fine. ;)

Just my two cents,

Brad Poe

P.S. Yeah, I know the post sounds like something out of science fiction, don't worry, like I said, my evil brain child really doesn't work so well.

[joe]

and even if it DOES sound too science-fiction, we can at least rest our brains in favour of the fact that it IS possible.

and like so many have said, believing is half the battle.

some, like me, just require proof. ;)

[loony28]

:twisted: Some of the files might benefit from being the *sharpest* scalpel. :twisted:

[Jack]

Want a grindstone? Read the books I posted at the following link:

http://www.warpmymind.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=151

There's no real need the worry about these, all of these books have safeguards built into them that protect against sociopathic uses.

[n00b]

Well, I think I just had an experience of "hypno gone wrong". I'm not 100% sure I remember how it all went, you'll see during the explaination:
A guy came onto the chat and after some talk offered to help me with a problem I'm having.
At first it was largely a normal experience, then we tried for a trigger.
The trigger was successful, so far so good.
Then we started to have some fun with making me think I was other people,
first a famous actress, so far so good.
Then a stripper, not my taste, ended up giving him an HJ but refusing to do a BJ.
Then he tried to get me to become a hooker, something my mind didn't want, I refused.
He woke me up with forgetting the session, something felt wrong.
He put me back under and calmed me down.
Afterwards, he tried to put me under, and use a very forceful statment.

At this point, my mind simply refused to follow, and his earlier commands began to dissolve (which is why I now remember). Even the formerly successful triggers. (triggers from other people still work) I think I lost the trust aspect.

This might be helpful to someone worried that someone might do something bad. Your mind CAN say "Woah! Hold on there!". You have to trust the 'tist.

The person wasn't a regular, and was using what I believe to be an unregistered nick, so don't think bad of the other 'tists in the channel (who I've had good results with).

[b-poe-01]

Hey n00b,

Sorry to hear about your bad experience, but at least it does show *one* good example of how the subconscious mind, for all its pliability, is still very much *YOU* and still quite able to put its foot down and say "No more thanks." :D

Even without an emotional crisis, the lack of trust on your part and the total lack of subtlety or a clue on his rendered his further efforts pointless.

Which is one thing that I think is a *saving* grace of hypnosis online, so far. Yes, most of us have bad days or bad moments where we do or try to do "the stupid thing". But that usually isn't the real threat, the real threat comes from folks who are *persistently* up to no good and *willfully* try to mess folks up in hurtful ways.

And in all modesty, in my humble opinion...all these money dommes, for example, or unscrupulous online "master" wannabes, they are so used to the direct brute force way of doing things that even *when* they try to be sneaky and lie about things or misdirect, the *flagrancy* of their intent comes through anyway.

Once a gorilla gangsta, always a gorilla gangsta. At least to put it in Snoop Dogg terms. :roll: Real sneaky and subtle action is lost on these folks usually, because the frame of reference is always to *overpower* and anything less than that is seen as "weakness" and not a proper use of intellect. If any respect for intellect exists with them in the first place.

So yeah, there are real nutjobs out there, but the good news is, so far they don't even try to outsmart the rest of us as yet, so they can be spotted, and even shut down if *not* spotted pre-induction, as n00b demonstrated. So the threat isn't as bad as it all seems as yet.

Just my nickel (inflation and such),

Brad Poe

[drowsydawg]

Then a stripper, not my taste, ended up giving him an HJ but refusing to do a BJ.

So what's with that? Do straight guys have such an aversion to gay sex that typing "/me gives you a BJ" will scar you for life too?

If I were into net sex, I'm pretty sure I could help anyone get off, man or woman, especially if I first had the chance to learn where the buttons that needed pushing were. (I'd probably be pretty good at online hypnosis too, but... well, a favorite analogy I like to use for things like that is what a friend in high school who loved acid said when he first tried pot: "I feel like a hot iron on dry rice." I've never been an actual hot iron on dry rice, and neither had he, but I'm pretty sure I know what it feels like, and online hypnosis falls into that category.)

[n00b]

The difference wasn't just in typing it, but experiencing it. I've helped people do things that I wouldn't do while they were under triggers. I'm okay with that. I'm not actually experiencing that. While I was under hypnosis, I felt like I was experiencing what was going on.

...and yeah, I was a damned good stripper. :)

[anita_goodfawke]

It is VERY possible to leave unfinished subconcious business running in someone's mind. Just like writing a computer program that has a bad loop or doesn't end correctly or gracefully.

Depending on the mentality of the subject, poor cleanup can last a couple of hours or a very long time. Often it can be "slept off".

When discussing abreaction, we are talking about suppressed emotional responses that are unlocked by the release of subconcious material. If you've hypnotized real people in real time for therapeutic purposes, uncontrollable crying is a common response related to the release of long buried emotions (some of which can stem back to very early childhood "misunderstandings").

Recreational hypnosis for erotic purposes can be a lot of fun, and there is a definite adaption that happens to anyone who is using hypnosis. Hypnosis is a learning, and learning creates adaptions (like being able to quickly and easily enter TRANCE). Post Hypnotic Suggestions (especially poorly formed or unintentional) can create a lot of distress to a subject as well.

Also, if rapport (trust) is exploited or abused you can "pop out" of trance in a state of anger or disapproval and still have lingering trance material activated. Some people respond to the Authoritarian Style, and like your "playmate" Noob, there was an attempt to try and use that style to dominate you. In real life, that kind of move is, strangely, more likely to succeed, esp if you are in an erotic scene with someone and are into sub/humiliation scenarios.

If any of the above created even a mild trance state, please bring your focus back to your concious mind :D

-Anita

[sugar]

ARE THERE SUBLIMINAL MESSAGES UNDER EMG'S VOICE? OR IS IT JUST THE SUGGESTIVEMENSS OF HIS VOICE? I WONDER IF THERE IS A CURSE ROB BANK (THEN GIVE THE MONEY TO ME..) WOULD THAT BE ILLEGAL?

[EMG]

There are no subliminals on any file that isn't labeled as a subliminal, every file does what it says, no more.

ARE THERE SUBLIMINAL MESSAGES UNDER EMG'S VOICE? OR IS IT JUST THE SUGGESTIVEMENSS OF HIS VOICE? I WONDER IF THERE IS A CURSE ROB BANK (THEN GIVE THE MONEY TO ME..) WOULD THAT BE ILLEGAL?

[OUstud82]

Maybe I haven't looked closely enough, but i haven't seen ANY files listed as having subliminal messages. But i could have just overlooked. If there are, which ones are they?

[sandy82]

"SublimTrainTrance" is currently among the listed Files.

Maybe I haven't looked closely enough, but i haven't seen ANY files listed as having subliminal messages. But i could have just overlooked. If there are, which ones are they?

[rugbyjockca]

An abreaction, to my best knowledge, is an emotional crisis that comes up when the trancer hits a *hard* limit, like being told out of the blue to kill someone.

I'm a newbie to hypnosis, and so I don't have a very dramatic personal experience to share, but after reading your description of abreaction, the one face-to-face hypno session I've had came to mind.

He wasn't a bad guy, and I sensed that he held a strong moral and ethical standard in regards to hypnosis. He'd had some experience and some education, and I feel he did know - for the most part - what he was doing. I did have a hard time trusting him, though: we didn't seem to have much in common, and so our conversation floundered. It was like two guys on opposite sides of a divide trying to build a bridge, but they just keep flailing away with planks that are just too short.

Anyway, I believe I did achieve trance, at least shallowly. He did some deepening stuff, and then we did some "talking with the subconscious" stuff. While I respect those who hold the idea of a subconscious you can have a talk with, it's not something that I put much stock in. Even so, while in trance, he had a genuine conversation with my subconscious, and discovered (or a suggestable me created) a sort of identity for it.

After a short conversation, he took me out of trance and, after ensuring I was okay, suggested we take a quick walk before coming back and continuing. I felt pretty dazed the whole time, but otherwise okay.

When we came back and tried to continue, though, it was nearly impossible to achieve trance, and the few times I did go under were very shallow and short-lived.

We debriefed, and then I sent the tist on his way, but the experience left me with a weird, too-open feeling that lasted for months. I completely turned off the idea of hypnosis of any kind. I didn't listen to EMG's files, and I (unfortunately, because I think he's a nice guy) stopped talking with the tist somewhat abruptly. It's not like I felt anything bad had happened, it was mainly just uncomfortable.

I think that maybe what happened is that he tripped something in me that I wasn't ready to deal with at the moment. It could have been anything, big or small, but it sort of felt like my subconscious had an advanced security system and he'd tripped the laser, so all the walls came up at once. It's made me a little more careful now: when I start searching for a face-to-face tist again, I'm going to make sure that there's a level of trust there before even experimenting with hypnosis. I'm making sure that I understand what I'm doing with myself, and I'm using this not-entirely-negative experience (I know what going under is supposed to feel like, which is pretty much what everyone else has described elsewhere) to help inform the decisions I make in the future.

I do know that using abreaction as a treatment sounds like it could be a lot of difficult and trying work for both the therapist and patient. I wouldn't like to experience it first hand, even if it did turn me into a dumb jock (or whatever).

Anyway, good thread, everyone.

[Folsom_god]

can you be hypnotized over the net without listening to the files that make you suggestible over the net?

[Jack]

Yes.

[Linja]

Really? So it's possible to hypnotise somebody by text?

-Linja

[rugbyjockca]

I've heard that text actually works better for some people. I think it has potential for me, because I read a lot, and written words tend to penetrate into my skull a little deeper.

[loony28]

:twisted: I think text might work for me too. Perhaps with a voice saying "relax" in the background. :twisted:

[Jack]

What do you think happens when you totally immerse yourself in a really good book?

[loony28]

What do you think happens when you totally immerse yourself in a really good book?

:twisted: Well when I'm immersed in a good book I tend to zone out and concentrate on the book. And that is hypnosis. :twisted:

[Jack]

Way to hit the nail square on the head loony!

[loony28]

Way to hit the nail square on the head loony!

:twisted: Thanks. The thing to keep in mind is that you have to find it good enough to hold your attention. It's pretty easy with books as they are a decent length but a hypnosis script is different. You don't want one the size of a book. I think there was someone here who uses a subliminal program on their computer to flash scripts they created, that may be the easiest way to use text for hypnosis purposes. :twisted:

[Jack]

It all depends on how riveting said text is.

[n00b]

Can you get hypnotized by text?

Yes.

Easily?

Yes.

How sure am I?

I get MUCH BETTER results through a text based session with a live person, than a recorded file. :)

[loony28]

:twisted: Good for you nOOb. I may have to try it. :twisted:

[Linja]

Wow, yeah, you guys put it well with the book thing. So, howcome we arn't seeing hypnosis books, which consist of just scripts that we read? I'm sorry if they do exist, I just havn't seen any around.

-Linja

[Jack]

Wow, yeah, you guys put it well with the book thing. So, howcome we arn't seeing hypnosis books, which consist of just scripts that we read? I'm sorry if they do exist, I just havn't seen any around.

-Linja

..You'll have to be more specific with this question.