Theories about god

by **aeroue** » March 4th, 2006, 4:48 pm

But its far worse to take that doubt
Deciding God does not exist.
Instead of trying to figure it out
Just becoming an atheist.

Sorry im rather inebriated again :)

Couldn't resist the rhyme

But, it is not logical just because you are not sure to decide something definitely does not exist.
There is not enough evidence to say god does not exist conclusively.
Nor enough to say he does, so in my mind sitting on the fence is the only correct decision.

But that's just my interpretation, you obviously see things differently.

by **Mallic** » March 4th, 2006, 5:14 pm

Ummm, it isn't possible to prove the non-exsistance of something, so don't try to use that arguement

by **SubmissMe** » March 5th, 2006, 6:57 am

And don't come on here posting drunk or stoned and tell us - because we were all really impressed the first time, but now it's growing a little thin.

by **aeroue** » March 5th, 2006, 1:34 pm

Only reason I said was incase it made little sense.
I don't give a damn if your impressed or not, I mean why would I? You don't know me.

My last post having re-read it did make sense so what is the problem if I do?
It is not as if it was just some drunken rambling there was a point to the post. Unlike your one complaining about it.

But Mallic so what if you can't disprove something?
Still doesn't make it logical to turn doubt into an impossibility.
If you do not consider possibilities even if they are not that likely you are unprepared, that applies to everything.

I wasn't argueing anyway, I was justifying my current 'sitting on the fence'

by **goldragon_70** » March 5th, 2006, 4:05 pm

[quote="Mallic":c2/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i42/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i]Ummm, it isn't possible to prove the non-exsistance of something, so don't try to use that arguement[/quote:c2/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i42/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i]

That’s how the scientific process works. A theory is a theory, until disproven.

by **SubmissMe** » March 6th, 2006, 10:42 am

I don't care if you are drunk or not, it's just I assume that you're old enough to realise it's nothing to brag about.

Anyway back to philosophy. There is a little known theory known as "Pascal's wager" which is easily applicable here.

Bottom line is this, Aeroue you can't look for God if you aren't 1/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i% sure of his existance because you will never truly find God. When it comes down to it, I used to respect you but your recent posts seem a tad contradictory. You want to look for God and want to believe, and yet you admit to being drunken and stoned. Not exactly model behaviour.

by **aeroue** » March 6th, 2006, 5:59 pm

I wasn't bragging, I was stating, in case the post was confusing so you knew why.

I would be confused myself if someone randomly wrote in rhyme and wonder why.

And you shouldn't lose respect for someone just because they drink or smoke, that is a tad discriminating.

Also how is it at all contradictory?

In many religions drugs are part of the ritual.

Rastafarians
American Indian spirituality
Ethiopoian Zion Coptic Church
Countless random shamans
Hinduism
The Greeks

to list some of them.
Just because Christianity disproves of and Islam prohibits drugs does not mean you cannot use drugs and have a spiritual life.

Im surprised you are so closed minded as to hold that view.

Why can I not find God if I am not 100% sure of God? If I am 100% of God I have found God so my search would be pointless.

Anyway all you did was state the argument, how can I dispute that?

by **SubmissMe** » March 8th, 2006, 6:22 am

What religion are you following?

by **aeroue** » March 8th, 2006, 1:48 pm

None in particular.

It doesn't have to be, it is my own 'spiritual journey' for lack of a better term.

by **xanthk** » March 9th, 2006, 2:47 am

A spiritual journey in which you sit and wait for answers to drop in your lap? Seems that to find faith, whether in God or in His Non-existence, you would have to go out looking for them.

[quote="aeroue":28aa/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i66d]
In many religions drugs are part of the ritual.

Rastafarians
American Indian spirituality
Ethiopoian Zion Coptic Church
Countless random shamans
Hinduism
The Greeks

to list some of them.
Just because Christianity disproves of and Islam prohibits drugs does not mean you cannot use drugs and have a spiritual life.
[/quote:28aa/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i66d]

Key word there ritual. To the followers of these religions, the effects of these substances are more than the pleasure they can cause. They are aids to ceremony and windows to enlightenment. What revelations do your drugs bring you?

by **SubmissMe** » March 9th, 2006, 9:03 am

My point exactly

by **Jack** » March 9th, 2006, 4:02 pm

And I quote....

"Today young men on acid realize that all matter is merely energy condensed to a slow vibration; that we are all one conciousness experiencing itself subjectively; there is no such thing as death; life is only a dream, and we are the imagination of ourselves. Here's Tom with the weather."
~bill hicks

"See, I think drugs have done some good things for us, I really do. And, if you don't believe drugs have done good things for us, do me a favor, go home tonight, take all your albums, all your tapes and all your cds and burn them... cause you know what? the musicians who made all that great music that's enhanced your lives throughout the years? rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreal fucking high on drugs."
~bill hicks

by **aeroue** » March 9th, 2006, 5:52 pm

No SubmissMe im pretty sure your point was more to do with them being a 'bad thing.' and that I was contradicting myself my doing drugs and claiming to look for religion.

to quote "Not model behaviour"

thus it was a referance to the morality of my actions and how they are supposedly against being religious. ~At least that appears to be what you meant, from what you actually wrote.

But anyway, sometimes I use my drugs and sometimes I actually USE them. Usually as aid in meditating.

I mostly read up on other religions, meditate and generally think.
I don't just sit and wait for them to 'arrive on my lap'
Not sure if I have had revelations, but I have had several 'realisations' and unusual experiences while meditating on cannabis. Also had a very interesting time on shrooms but once I was sober I did not understand. Prolly just the shrooms there though.

Whether or not I actually engage in the ritual is irrelevant.

The point SubmissMe was making is that drugs and religion cannot co-exist.

They obviously can.

Therefore I am not contradicting myself.

Whether I actually engage in ritual is a matter of interpretation.
Having a spliff and meditating is like ritual for me.
But of course my spirituality is far from the ritual of organised religion.

Who is to say where the line is?

by **Mallic** » March 9th, 2006, 11:43 pm

The point SM was trying to make is that you were posting while drunk and stoned AND trying to find god at the same time. Drugs sort of hinder the process rather than help, to say nothing of alcholol. Whether or not you engage in the ritual IS relevant. What 'realizations' did you have?

by **SubmissMe** » March 10th, 2006, 9:28 am

Yes, I think it's irritating that you feel the urge to tell us all that you drink and use drugs. My point is that it is largely irrelevant to most of your posts and I think you just tend to try and blend it in to appear "cool". Obviously, you'll deny that but I don't care - beause I'm very drunk and have just injected heroin into my arm 8)

But on a serious note, my point was that you tell us how much of a meditating bad ass you are and then go on to ramble about your aimless spiritual journey. Do you see the contradiction I'm getting at here?

And you've had revelations whilst smoking cannabis? That's the fault of the drug, and is not a purely philosophical insight.

by **goldragon_70** » March 10th, 2006, 11:27 am

[quote="SubmissMe":/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/if717536]But on a serious note, my point was that you tell us how much of a meditating bad ass you are and then go on to ramble about your aimless spiritual journey. Do you see the contradiction I'm getting at here?[/quote:/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/if717536]

I do much the something. I meditate when I need to, and I forge my own path. I study other religions, because I find some truth in there fundamentals, but I find they are flawed, so I find my own way. As for ceremony, I find I don't need them, if I clear the correct spirits, and get into the right frame of mind.

I will say though, I haven't had the need to use drugs in any of my journey so far.

by **aeroue** » March 11th, 2006, 12:11 pm

[quote]
But on a serious note, my point was that you tell us how much of a meditating bad ass you are and then go on to ramble about your aimless spiritual journey. Do you see the contradiction I'm getting at here?
[/quote]

No, I see no conradictions there...
Meditation doesn't conradict spirituality, obviously.
I assume you meant drugs, and no I don't. What is it?
Why because I use drugs can I not lead a spiritual life?

I don't need to smoke to do it, but on occasions it helps or I am high anyway.

Never said I was amazing at meditation either.

I only used the term spiritual journey because I could think of nothing better. It is basically what Goldragon_7/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i explained.

[quote]
I think you just tend to try and blend it in to appear "cool".
[/quote]

There are few people who are naieve enough to think someone is 'cool' because of their drugs use. Especially on this forum, so what would the point be? Why would I?

Maybe you just have a problem with drug use. I write once that I was high, as a disclaimer on one of my stranger posts and that I was drunk after I wrote a bad poem so as to explain it. So it was relevant, on the whole, two occasions.

[quote]

And you've had revelations whilst smoking cannabis? That's the fault of the drug, and is not a purely philosophical insight.

[/quote]

What is pure philosophical insight? And why do drugs hinder it?

by **SubmissMe** » March 11th, 2006, 1:33 pm

Goodness me I cannot believe you can't see the point I am making here, so I'm just going to give up. I don't care if you can't see the contradiction becasue everyone else can.

And there is a very big difference between coming to a conclusion by reason and logic and coming to a conclusion with the aid of drugs and/or alcahol.

By the way, I couldn't give a crap if you deal heroin to childen in your spare time I just don't come on here to hear about your personal life. That means no I don't care what you did at the weekend and no I don't care if your dog died just like no I don't care you posted drunk because honestly, I couldn't tell anyway.

by **aeroue** » March 11th, 2006, 6:19 pm

If it is so obvious please spell it out, I am interested.

I just looked over your recent posts and the extent of your argument is you stating there is a contradiction. i.e. no argument just opinion.

by **Mallic** » March 11th, 2006, 6:40 pm

W-E A-R-E T-E-L-L-I-N-G Y-O-U N-O-T- T-O R-E-F-E-R-E-N-C-E Y-O-U-R D-R-U-G U-S-E I-F Y-O-U D-O N-O-T U-S-E T-H-E-M F-O-R S-P-R-I-T-U-A-L P-U-R-P-O-S-E-S. Did you get that?

by **SubmissMe** » March 12th, 2006, 10:20 am

Please just say yes so we can all move on in life.............

by **aeroue** » March 12th, 2006, 1:49 pm

Mallic do you realise that makes it harder to read?
Besides that is not what I was questioning.
I am very aware he does not want me to referance drug use I want to know why me using drugs and being spiritual/looking for some sort of god is a contradiction.
Next time you should read the posts.

I just don't see why, because you tell me to, I should accept that that I am a living contradiction.
If you don't want to answer fine, whatever.

Your explanation so far has been nothing but rhetoric.

by **Mallic** » March 12th, 2006, 4:03 pm

By making it more hard to read, I was hoping ou'd have to think harder to understand it. Obviously that hasn't worked, so I'll be direct.

[color=red]Shut upShut upShut upShut up[/color][size=24]Shut upShut upShut upShut up[/size]

by **aeroue** » March 13th, 2006, 4:55 am

Because obviously in philosophy the one who is correct is the one who can type shut up in large print, repeatedly. That is a real sign of intelligence.

Not that my keyboard can actually 'shut up' anyway.

I don't know about anyone else but I find random pointless posts such as Mallic's there far more annoying than a few words referencing drug use within a post that actually has a point.

Im going to assume since you have yet to reply (SubmissMe) that you have no tangible reasons for your claim that drugs and spirituality cannot go together.

Which means you never did. Which means you really should concede yourself, though I doubt you will. Of course as I have stated several times now please if you do actually have a reason, post it.

by **SubmissMe** » March 13th, 2006, 3:22 pm

That's a mighty high horse you're on aeroue - it'd be a shame if you were to fall off.

I'm going to explain this for the very last time, because I get sick of telling you.

Point 1 I don't care about your drug use so don't tell me about it. It is a waste of valuable engery that could be spent thinking up ways of being even more of a sarcastic bigot than you already are. But without getting into insults, drug use doesn't concern me so supress your urge to brag about it.

Point 2 Finding God is about a journey you must take unaided. It's just not the same if you're drunk or stoned or have a friend help. You won't get the same sort of accomplishment.

NOW FOR THE MUCH TALKED ABOUT CONTRADICTION THAT EVERYONE ELSE BUT YOU SEEMS TO GET

Whilst you claim in some religions drugs and faith can go hand in hand, in some it is evident they can't.
You are on a spiritual journey, but as far as I'm concerned, you haven't even bothered to buy a road map. You can't just leave every religion open and search through them all to find God. You need some direction.

And yet you continue to take drugs that goes against SOME religions and if anything gives you more misdirection and less focus.

There are those who find God through analysis of scriptures and hours of prayer, and there are those drop-outs like you who stumble through life witha joint in one hand and a bag full of loose ideas in the other. Who's gonna find God 1st?

And if I haven't spelled this out enough then I may well lose all sanity. Is there anyone else bar aeroue who doesn't get this?

by **aeroue** » March 13th, 2006, 5:43 pm

Thought that might gain a response.

That is just sterotype and opinion.

You assume because I choose to use drugs I am a 'drop-out' and have nothing but a few loose ideas.

I said already I read scriptures. If they are praying surely they have found a God already, I do not know how praying to the God I do not yet know will help. Or they have joined a religion in hope of finding God. But they aren't finding God they are trying to find a specific God, which may not exist.

[quote:368652e/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i]
Whilst you CLAIM in some religions drugs and faith can go hand in hand, in some it is evident they can't.
You are on a spiritual journey, but as far as I'm concerned, you haven't even bothered to buy a road map. You can't just leave every religion open and search through them all to find God. You need some direction.
[/quote:368652e/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i]

I claim? Is there some dispute on this point? It is clearly obvious that that in fact some religions actually do. Rhetoric.
A road map? The stupid American term for (plan?) I heard too much on TV about Isreal in the news ages ago? I thought it was meant to be an unaided journey, it's what you just said...Besides what sort of form is this 'road map' to God supposed to take?
Why can I not just look through every religion? I gain insights through each one I study.

[quote:368652e/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i]
And yet you continue to take drugs that goes against SOME religions and if anything gives you more misdirection and less focus.
[/quote:368652e/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i]

I eat pork, I eat shellfish, I eat meat, I am willing to work on a Sunday, I do not regularly go to mosque/church/temple, I havn't cast away all my personal possessions, I havn't followed a thousand other religious commandments. See my point?

So what if I go against some religions by doing drugs, I go against a bunch more anyway. Moreso you are not expected to obey a religion until you are following it.

Also in what way are you qualified to claim it gives me less direction and focus? Do you know me? How can you tell? Personally I disagree, I have done well for myself despite smoking cannabis since a fairly young age.

On point 1:

I know, I havn't disputed the fact that you don't want me to post that information. It is obvious.
I already said I wasn't bragging, another of your misconceptions.
Without getting into insults? You sarcastic bigot?

On point 2:

But im not intoxicated 24/7 am I?
Im not sure whether your are correct saying it must be unaided either. Most people attempt to find God through a communal religion.

Sorry for the bad order.
Thanks for the eventual clarification.
I still disagree, you based half of it on steotype.
The rest doesn't seem right.

by **Jack** » March 13th, 2006, 5:52 pm

I get what you're saying, and the two aren't mutually exclusive. Just because some religions are against the use of drugs(extreme example: Mormons) that doesn't mean that drugs are necessarily a road block. With proper applications and guidance(be it from outside sources or self-control/discipline) drugs can be used to speed up the process. I do agree that drugs can lead to a road block, or a scenic route for people who are unprepared for the journey, but the same can be said for the complete removal of drug use.

If you look back through history you will find that all of the oldest religions in the world endorsed the use of mind altering substances. You will also find that all religions that have come to power have done terrible(and great) things for the world.

Your position is that of all dogmatic zealots. It's either one or the other. There can be no middle ground. No shades of grey. "This works for me, and what you do fucks me up so it's a bad thing and should be destroyed along with you."

Your static sense of quality is an example of the same static systems which entropy has removed in the past. Why are you continuing the make the same mistake our ancestors have made since the dawn of creation?

Realize that you can only speak for you.

In the US we have the same problem in a lot of ways. For example, this banning of same sex marriages. The good thing about this country is that the laws are much more dynamic than other countries of past and present. One day one of a few things is going to happen. People will wake up and realize that it doesn't matter, and same sex marriages will be legalized and a system will be setup to regulate such; People will apply the same thoughts to the already accepted institution of marriage and decide that same sex marriages will be allowed; People will apply the same thoughts to the institution of marriage and decide that the institution of marriage will be banned all together.

You seem to be looking through a glass darkly. Perhaps you should squeegee your third eye. *tosses you a few doses of LSD* This should help some.

by **Jack** » March 16th, 2006, 8:47 pm

What?!? No replies?!?

by **Mallic** » March 16th, 2006, 8:49 pm

Its hard to tell whos side your on.

by **Jack** » March 16th, 2006, 9:00 pm

Is that what's stopping you?

I'm on my side, and at times it will tie in with your side, and at others it will join with aeroues case.. most likely.

by **Mallic** » March 16th, 2006, 9:02 pm

No, its not stopping me, my apathy to towards the subject is whats stopping me.

by **Jack** » March 16th, 2006, 9:06 pm

Apathy?

You seemed pretty interested up until sunday.

by **Mallic** » March 16th, 2006, 9:08 pm

Thats the point I went 'Arrg, fuck it I have better things to do.'

by **Jack** » March 16th, 2006, 9:11 pm

Hehe. I can understand that. You seemed pretty irked with all of those dashes in your words.

Btw, I pretty much agree with what you said about not referencing drug use if it's not for spiritual purposes. Who wants wanton hedonism running amuck?

by **charon2187** » March 16th, 2006, 9:13 pm

A little wanton hedonism now and then, is good for the soul.

by **Jack** » March 16th, 2006, 9:14 pm

I've always said "All things in moderation. Including moderation."

by **Mallic** » March 16th, 2006, 9:16 pm

When was the last time you said that?

by **Jack** » March 16th, 2006, 9:17 pm

Just a moment ago.

But if you mean before that: Two days ago at work.

by **Mallic** » March 16th, 2006, 9:22 pm

Ahh, well. But your right, you know. And that about sums up what is wrong with the world....

I mean, what is there to live for if Jack was right about something?

by **Jack** » March 16th, 2006, 9:23 pm

*snickers* Me!

by **SubmissMe** » March 17th, 2006, 10:46 am

Well, I'm glad everything has wrapped up in a neat little package.

by **nuit09** » March 17th, 2006, 4:42 pm

I don't know about that. I know God exists because i have met his opposition.

by **charon2187** » March 17th, 2006, 4:45 pm

I think we've rocked the boat enough at this point

by **goldragon_70** » March 17th, 2006, 5:53 pm

[quote="SubmissMe":4f1184b/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i]Well, I'm glad everything has wrapped up in a neat little package.[/quote:4f1184b/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i]

It's when it's in a neat package, that you need to worry. 8O

by **SubmissMe** » March 18th, 2006, 8:21 am

nuit, what you just said may be the most absurd thing I have ever read on this site.

I cannot even begin to divulge how silly you are sounding.

by **nuit09** » March 18th, 2006, 11:33 am

It has the virtue of being true though. There's nothing like having a super-natural entity try to throttle you to convince you all is not as it seems. I really cannot bring myself to care overly much what a scoffer on a website dedicated to, among other things, polymorphing member's shape, form and personas feels about something that i have personally experienced. To do so, ; now that would really be silly. :D

by **SubmissMe** » March 18th, 2006, 1:50 pm

How the hell can you believe in God just because you haven't met an opposition? How do you know there is an opposition? Things can exist independant of having a binary opposite.

by **CuriousG** » March 18th, 2006, 1:55 pm

William Ockam is a lot more logical than God from my perspective.

by **nuit09** » March 18th, 2006, 1:58 pm

[quote="SubmissMe":f/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i7dd8f2]How the hell can you believe in God just because you haven't met an opposition? How do you know there is an opposition? Things can exist independant of having a binary opposite.[/quote:f/\[url=(https?:\/\/[^\s\[]+):$uid\](.*?)\[\/url:$uid\]/i7dd8f2]

I said i have met the opposition. if the opposition exists so does that which it opposes. in the case of the concept of the Diety; no it cannot. the whole rationale of atheism is shattered by the existance of even one spiritual entity. since i have met one i cannot be an atheist. And that entity has no reason to exist unless there is a Deity.

by **charon2187** » March 18th, 2006, 2:25 pm

What spiritual entity?

Theories about god

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