Wetting by surprise or on a timed schedule

[childlike]

This is actualy a continuation of an earlier thread started by Wohermiston (My Bladder Control Lesson by wohermiston » 29 Oct 2014 13:52) in which I had asked him about making that last step of wetting anywhere, any time without making a mental check to make sure I am wearing a diaper.
In that thread I stated:

… after wearing diapers 24/7 for the past 3 years, and most of the time for several years before that, and being a true life-long bed/diaper wetter, I still have control when it is inconvenient to wet. When I don’t know if there will be a convenient diaper changing location or I am afraid I might leak in front of lots of people, I remember to hold it. Sometimes I even relieve myself in the bathroom despite the fact that I am wearing a diaper. (Not wetting is definitely a failure.)

Wohermiston suggested using a vibrating reminder watch as a reminder to wet on a timed schedule. His file called Barrington039s_Nucleus.MP3 uses suggestions to cause you to “wet by surprise or on a timed schedule”.

I was intrigued by this advice and purchased a reminder clock that can stay in my pocked where I will feel the vibrations. At first I had to rig it so I wouldn’t accidentally press buttons and stop the timer. Then I had to find an interval that was appropriate for my own body. I already have an OAB so I feel the urge to pee more often than most. Too short of an interval and I have no urine in my bladder when the alarm goes off. Too long and I am struggling to hold it. I finally set it at around 1 hour and 20 minutes during the day and 35 - 45 during the evening when I am less active and drinking more water, (I don’t drink alcohol).

After about a week, I was wondering how this would work. Every time I feel the vibration I dutifully wet whatever I had in my bladder. Then I started anticipating the alarm and wondering when it will go off. I know I should forget about it so it will go off when I least expect it. A couple of times I think I imagined a vibration and started to wet, then a minute or so later the alarm went off. I thought that was interesting but didn’t think it meant anything other than being over anxious to wet. But then this afternoon I was dealing with some business on the phone while at my computer, and multitasking on another piece of business and I got a series of texts about something. I was definitely distracted when I noticed I was flooding my diaper. Then I noticed that the alarm was vibrating and had been since I started wetting. I didn’t remember thinking “there’s the alarm, now wet”. I seemed to do it automatically.

This is just one success, but I hope it is the beginning of the end of what remains of my continence.
I know I think too much but I still wonder how, if this really works, I will go from wetting on command to truly not thinking about it without the reminder.
Wohermiston, any thoughts?

[wohermiston]

" Too long and I am struggling to hold it." doesn't this contradict with this:
"When I don’t know if there will be a convenient diaper changing location or I am afraid I might leak in front of lots of people, I remember to hold it."

Because if you can always hit a point where you struggle to hold it, no matter where you are, then why not just let that happen. I would love to be able to experience that. But I have a shy bladder that can lock down so tight that I lose all urge sensation.

[childlike]

Thanks for your response.
Yes I can “just let go” and I do most of the time, but somehow there is some planning involved.
Sometimes I think, Is there a place to change without being too conspicuous? Will my diaper contain everything when I’m in front of everyone? If the answer is no, then I seem to have enough control to get to the bathroom. I have OAB, but I’m not day time incontinent. Maybe what causes your "shy bladder" is present even in me to a lesser degree. As you know, that fear of wetting our pants is present in all of us at a very basic level. It was ingrained at our most formative age and reinforced for much of our lives.

I had an experience that showed me how deep seated basic (or primal) fear can be. I had a chance to do a test run for a VR company in an installation of their product. Goggles, headphones, a designated room with real objects and wind and temperature control to augment the VR experience. There was a scene where I was many stories up on the outside of a building and I had to walk across a narrow plank to the other building. They purposely used a warped plank so it wouldn’t be stable and would wobble. I have a terrible fear of heights. It is visceral and intense. I knew full well that there wasn’t the slightest bit of height here. The plank was on the floor. I couldn’t fall. But it still took everything I had to force myself to quickly step across. That’s a deep set fear.
Maybe if I had access to that place as much as I needed, I could walk across that plank many times. Then I might be able to train away that fear, or at least override it more easily. I think that is what I have been doing by wearing diapers all the time and using them almost all the time as I have been doing. Now, by using the timer, I am hoping I may be able to get used to wetting EVERYWHERE regardless of the situation and get over that last hurdle. I desperately want to wet without control – for real. I feel like I am so close to that now.
I always have a diaper on and almost always use it, but it feels like I still control when and how. I know that’s illogical to most people, but I also know that there are people on this forum who understand how I feel.
I feel lucky because I am able to wet my pants as much as I do, not to mention the fact that I am so far past having control when I sleep that I soak at least one, and usually 2 diapers every night and still often get the pad wet. Now I so much want to have that same lack of control when I am awake. Why should that be so difficult to achieve. I thought uncontrolled bed wetting was the part that is hardest for people to achieve, and I have that one down.

[wohermiston]

There are people reading this who are already envious of your progress, especially night time; that's amazing. It sounds like it is your concern of what others may think that affects your daytime behavior and that is simply being responsible. If you are afraid that the diaper may leak, then maybe you need better diapers. Overcoming the fear of others finding out, well, that is such a big unknown isn't it? We just cannot know how others will react. Or can we? There has to be well documented episodes where people were exposed to uncomfortable or unusual experiences. I should look into that and see how these situations were handled. Adults are expected to be responsible with themselves at all times. If you had no conscious control or even awareness of your wetting, what would you do if your diaper leaked in a public setting? You worry about it, but have you given any thought to what you would actually do?

[childlike]

That’s why you’re so good at what you do. You are very perceptive in how you pick up on the contradictions, and I do have contradictions. First of all yes, I have an assortment of the best diapers. Some thick for night time and longer periods like traveling, and others thin for short periods where I am more active such as the gym. Still I have leaked more times than I can remember and it was never an issue. It was always easy to just not call attention to it. Even if someone were to notice a wet spot on my pants, it’s usually off to the side (where the leak occurs) and so diapers would not be the first thing people think of. Could be a spill, or something I sat in but the fact is, they just don’t notice.
Why should I be so concerned about how I would deal with an accident in public? I am great at improvising. I have had a lifetime of practice. As a kid, a teenager and young adult I was much more conflicted about my wetting than I am now. At that time in my life, I had to deal with self-loathing and depression and such where now I am perfectly happy with this aspect of myself. But I was really good at concealing my bed wetting. Even when it happened somewhere other than home, (camping, someone’s house, college), my mind went into problem solving over-drive as soon as I woke up and noticed I was soaked. Even when I did get caught, the biggest drama was only in my own head. Now I am expert at managing my wetting. I have a contingency for everything and it rarely causes much stress or drama.
To answer your question about “have I given thought to what I would do if I leaked in a public setting?” Yes, much thought. Bottom line, I don’t over react. It’s a medical condition. No one knows about the fetish part of this.
a. I have gotten over having diapers in my carryon luggage in the airport scanner or wearing diapers through the body scanner.

b. I have gotten over informing the nursing staff when I have had surgery or other procedures about my condition and that I may have an accident. My doctor knows about it and has me diagnosed with OAB.

c. I have been wearing diapers 24/7 for years now and have gotten over much of the worry about the bulge being noticed.

d. Most important, I found a woman who loves me, and knows that I wet my bed and pants, and even that I enjoy wearing diapers. It has become part of what she loves about me.
So why should I still inhibited.

What I have been wanting is to have that last bit of inhibition automatically get out of the way and wet without thinking about it – have real accidents. What I think you are saying is; “If you want to wet, then wet. The result is the same”.
But still, actually not having control is the Holy Grail.
I enjoy your insight Wohermiston, and your files on this subject matter are by far the most helpful I have found.

[wohermiston]

Many of us would like to have peeing taken from our control. Hypnosis can help to minimize inhibitions. Bring them into alignment with reality, because we all tend to exaggerate things. It can also help make diapers seem like the right way or best way to deal with a problem. The last file I did was constructed along those lines. There is a post just under mine in this forum promoting some pay files offsite which claim to induce incontinence.
Have you tried them?

[childlike]

Yes I have tried plenty of pay files from several sources over the years. Some are fun, most are ineffective and some are blatant rip-offs. One great series of tapes was from DPF way back when. The problem as I now see it, is the same as with many of the files here. There's a good induction and delivery but when it comes down to the meat of it, they repeat a command several times. "Now you will magically wet your pants".
Basically they are telling me it will just happen - and it never does.

Not to be sycophantic, but I think you are one of the few I have heard who can actually reach me. I have no idea what kind of education you have in this field, but you have such good understanding of bladder control and hypnosis and psychology. Your way (or the Eriksonian way) of leading me down a path that I truly want to go down, telling me a story (not a command), and explaining how my brain/bladder connection work, and suggesting a plan of action to achieve my goal, seems to work best for me. Your delivery is gentle and seems to speak to me as the child that I really am, but I don't feel pandered to. Also, I know that what I am trying to achieve will only be produced through conditioning (yes it takes time) and not because someone sold me a recording that tells me these things will just happen. It's not the money. It's that I know most of those don't work. In fact, in addition to your files, the best ones I have found have been on WMM for free of really cheap.

What I really would like to find out, is if a one on one hypnotist can help me more than a recording. I tried one via skype, and found her to be ok, but she wasn't really into my thing and it showed. I doubt that many of the erotic hypnotists really understand how to help someone become incontinent, and certainly none of the mainstream ones would even go there.

[wohermiston]

This is just a hobby for me. A personal fascination with just this one subject and method. I have said many times, I write these scripts for myself first. I am on a quest much as you are. We are all just trying to find the right set of words that unlock all the different aspects of control. And as you have found, it is a journey down many paths. If only it were just so easy as a simple command! Coming back to your first post, I would say stick with the timer, it seems to be working. And you could always approach a conventional local hypnotist in an offhand way to perhaps use him to overcome just one aspect of this without having to divulge what the end result is that you are after. Let him help you to find more confidence to be yourself for example. We are a unique bunch. Because when you google this subject, all you come up with are weird valve contraptions that are inserted inside to help you regain control, and those contraptions are nightmares when they fail, or when they create UTI's. So much is aimed at regaining control no matter how risky it may seem. What we do is the safest possible solution. That's not hard to explain to someone, so don't be put off that a local professional Hypnotist could not help. Presented in the right way, he may be very interested. I appreciate all the back and forth discussions you have given. And others reading this in the future will appreciate it as well.

[nikole]

Hello both,

There are people reading this who are already envious of your progress, especially night time; that's amazing.

Like WOH assumed I really like that thread and I want to give it a try. I already wear diapers almost 24/7, but I still think, that I have the control like childlike had at the beginning.
Although I did not believe that first, now I want to give it realy a try. I really think and hope, that our bladder will learn to wet.

Wohermiston suggested using a vibrating reminder watch as a reminder to wet on a timed schedule.

Maybe it's a stupid querstion: do you recommend some watch, which is perfect for that job. Because after search on the net I just found watches with just a few alarms or they not cahngeable timer intervals. I think for this purpose it should support something like "vibrate every xxx minutes".

Thanks so much,
Mika

[wohermiston]

https://www.autism-products.com/product ... s-charcoal
I saw this one. also bed bath and beyond actually has a potty watch! but it is for real little kids. I think the biggest issue with all these sort of products is reliability. Also, the batteries will not last very long.

[childlike]

Hi Mika,
I got this one:
Invisible Clock II Personal Timer. Google it.
It lets you set different kinds of alarm schemes but I just use the timer which lets me set an interval, say 2 hours, and have it repeat. I didn't want a wrist watch so this one fits in my pocket or clips on my belt like a pager. I think it is actually very poorly designed as the buttons are too easily pushed by accident, canceling the timer. I rigged it to not do this with some tape and a piece of plastic to cover and protect the buttons. There are a number of wrist watch options out there too.
Google the words "Vibrating reminder watch"

Good luck

[nikole]

Hello,
Thank you! Now I got an idea how I should search for those reminders.
Currently my favourite would be a band, like fittness trackers. Bad thing: they just have a lot of other functions, I still have to find the right one.
If not I think I will buy a clock like WOH.
Mika

[nikole]

Finally I found and ordered my watch, too!!!

@childlike: Hopefully it will be as effective as in your case! Please keep us informed, maybe some of your experiences are also good for me. Do you still use the watch?

@Wohermiston: Thank you for making those files. Do you suggest any other file apart form Barrington's Nucleus?

[wohermiston]

The latest file is a very up beat confidence building file which you might find helpful.

[nikole]

Thanks!

[nikole]

Thanks for your answer. NIght and Day really sounds great.

[nikole]

@childlike, I just want to know your current/latest interval times during day and night.
It's somewhere between 1 and 2 hours, I already read above.

[childlike]

@Mika, Sorry I didn't update my progress like I said I would.
I abandoned the timer for a couple of reasons. First, I couldn't get a time interval that worked for all times of day. 2 hours may have been fine for late morning through early evening hours but way too much time for my bladder in the evening or early morning.
Second, I felt like I was trying to hold it until the timer vibrated, which contradicts with "let it go when ever you feel the need". I don't need to practice holding it unless I want to be potty trained.

I have no problem wetting my diaper anywhere, anytime. I even forget that I did so more often than not. Sleep wetting has always been with me even when I desperately wanted to stay dry, and it has only gotten more frequent. It's gotten so frequent that I have no idea of how many time per night I wet.
The problem is, during the day I still have a choice. And when it is more convenient to hold it for a while than to have to change my diaper, I hold it. Most people on this forum would think that's a perfect situation. For me, I want to have no choice in the matter.

How many files on WMM and elsewhere boast that "you will have no control over this at any time" or "if you aren't wearing a diaper you will wet your pants right there in front of everyone".
That's what I want! Several of the tists on this site get that, but so far, nothing has gotten me past that seemingly last hurdle - wetting myself no matter what. Wohermiston probably comes closest to getting inside my mind and understanding the intricacies of training to become incontinent. Sarnoga gets close too, with Accustomed to wetting. But I still have that last bit of control.

The timer may work better for you than for me. Find an interval that gives you enough time to fill your bladder part way but not so much where it is telling you it needs to go. Try to forget about the timer. Then wet as soon as it starts to vibrate.

Let us know how it works for you.

[wohermiston]

"And when it is more convenient to hold it for a while than to have to change my diaper, I hold it" There you have it right? That's what you need to change, the idea that holding it is more convenient. is it? I am working on a file that works on the concept of what's important. Maybe I can work what's convenient into it somewhere. But no amount of hypnosis will make you do something you don't want to do, your proving that to us all. Here that it is summer time, I am realizing how hard the timer idea is to implement. In hot weather, it takes a much longer time for the bladder to fill up. Trying to work on a fixed amount of time not going to work. WOH

[childlike]

That makes sense WOH. But I what I don't understand is why doesn't habit kick in during any of these (problem) times. As Sarnoga suggests in "Accustomed to wetting", as I think you suggest in more than one of your files, It is my habit to wet and it is my habit to forget when I wet. Both are definitely my habits. I may very well be aware of wetting when I do, but I almost always forget when I do it shortly afterwards. (I don't usually forget that I wet, just when I wet.

So why don't I ever wet out of habit during these times, like say, when my mind is focusing on another task. (I've heard those suggestions too).

I've heard it said that hypnosis can't make you do what you don't want to do (You just reiterated that), but you can be tricked into doing those things. That being said, It doesn't sound possible for a hypnosis subject to be aware of that trickery and have it still work.

For example, I want to wet my pants without any control. So a suggestion is given to wet my pants uncontrollably. But a part of my personality is resistant to that, even though I give my consent to that suggestion, at least under certain circumstances.
Instead, a suggestion is given that the urge to urinate is not actually an urge to urinate, but rather something else - like say an itch. If I scratch the itch, it goes away and feels so good and warm when it does. It's the most natural thing. So the urge to urinate and the act of urinating becomes something other than what it is.

Like I said, if that was suggested, I would know the strategy and therefore couldn't be tricked. Or could I?

I guess your suggestion about making the "idea that holding it is more convenient" is not that far off.

But oh how the fantasy of having pure loss of control is really tantalizing!

[childlike]

WOH, there's something that just came to mind that may be interesting, or meaningless - I don't know.

There were many times in my life that I tried very hard to suppress my diaper thing and especialy stop the bed wetting. I never could do either for very long. But I remember something about the bed wetting that I always thought was interesting.

Many times I can remember having a dream and waking up wet, and even having a memory of the feeling of wetting, but the feelings and images in the dream weren't associated with wetting at all. I have heard many accounts of dreaming about a toilet and wetting the bed, or dreaming about water and also wetting the bed, but none of these dreams had anything to do with either of those things. In fact whenever I had one of those dreams, and occasionally I would, I actually woke up dry and needing to pee. It was as if the dream made me aware that I needed to pee.

I don't remember the dreams anymore, but I do remember this fact about them. It may have been something like, in my dream I was doing some task, maybe struggling with it or not, and then I felt the warmth and relief. None of the feelings or images I had in the dream had anything to do with wetting or with water. They seemed completely unrelated. What I don't know, and will probably never know is, were these dreams somehow related to wetting in some abstract way? Or were they just dreams and images and I coincidentally wet my bed before, during or after them. I suspect that the dreams didn't trigger the wetting at all but rather the wetting, and all the associated feelings, was a touchstone for the dream.

The reason I bring this up is that it may be a pathway into the wetting part of the subconscious in regards to wetting during the day or night - Misdirection and association with something unrelated, rather than a direct suggestion to "wet your pants". But somehow it needs to connect with the feeling of a full bladder and the relief I get by relaxing and just letting go.

It may also be an insight into helping those who want to start wetting the bed. Maybe the "pee dream" suggestion under hypnosis works for some, but it's not this bed wetter's experience with dreaming or wetting.

Just some thoughts. Sorry if I got too "out there". I just thought maybe you could do something with this. (I'm also talking to the other tists who may be lurking.)

[wohermiston]

if you want absolute loss of control, you would probably have to seek out a surgeon in the Philippines! Or so I have heard. I guess the another option is the domination technique of hypnosis. If you agree to being dominated, then potentially any command can be accepted. there is a running post on that subject in this forum. But I have always felt that loss of control is the wrong approach. acceptance of behavior is the best way forward. How we get there is different for each of us. But there should be some common ground. And that is what I keep searching for. My pee dreams always involved school because that is where my shy bladder was created 5th and 6th grades. The dream consists of going from bathroom to bathroom looking for a working toilet, but they are all broken in some way. Then, like you, I would wake up needing to go. I think you have done very well based on your descriptions. And your only slip up, if you want to call it that, is using your control ability to act in a responsible way because you don't want to deal with a leaky diaper. That' must be a very powerful built in emotion. We all probably experienced some "shaming" to one degree or another on the way out of diapers. And those emotions come back every time we reenact those moments. That's my best guess.

[nikole]

In my case an almost accident throwed me back a little bit.

I was already wearing diapers all the time for several weeks. I wetted easily but never without thinking about it. Then I had to go away for several days and I decided to do not wear them during that time because of a difficult situation. I thought it wont matter, just like a small break.

When I felt the need to pee sometime I just wanted to let it flow. But suddendly I realized that I was not wearing a diaper and stopped immediatelly. Since that incident it's more difficult. The easy feeling has gone and I hope it will come back soon...

[childlike]

WOH, There you go again with that acting in a "responsible way" thing. But of course you're absolutely right. Just like I get up in the morning, show up to life and try to be a productive member of society, I don't pee all over peoples furniture and such. I see my core/inner self as a child who isn't potty trained, but I know others won't see me that way. So I have to keep that to myself and my wife. In other words, I act responsibly. But with diapers, I can manage that part of me up to the point where I don't trust them to do the job anymore. Then my responsible self kicks in and puts the brakes on. That's why you put the suggestion in some of your files to choose "good diapers". As Mika pointed out, when he had an "almost accident" it set him back in his efforts. I think more than anything that is why I have been in diapers 24/7 with out exception for a long time.

My fantasy has been that, if I can be made to wet my pants, then I will know that I need diapers all the time. But that's actually backwards. If I did wet my pants accidentally in public, It would probably hurt my chances of wetting even close to uncontrollably, thus your suggestion to use good diapers. Build the confidence in the diapers and you might start wetting easier and easier with out thinking much about it.

That said, isn't it conceivable that, by getting more and more comfortable and accustomed to wetting, one could indeed wet unconsciously, at least when the mind is occupied with something else? Isn't it possible that if I went with out a diaper, I may actually forget that I don't have a diaper on and wet my pants? I think for many of us, that's actually the grand prize, more than say, dribbling all day in our diaper without feeling it. That probably stems from that early childhood pants-wetting episode we may or may not consciously remember.

The thought of it is terrifying and exhilarating at the same time.

[wohermiston]

" Isn't it possible that if I went with out a diaper, I may actually forget that I don't have a diaper on and wet my pants?" That reminds me of the last chapter of the story "Room and Board", but it does not accurately describe childhood. 3 year olds struggle with gaining control partly because of mental development and partly because of poor time management. They wait too long and cannot hold it because they don't have the mental power to overcome the urge to go. And this happens because they don't really want to stop what they are doing; their little lives are filled with so much to do, i think as adults we need to feel the same way about our lives. I think you can learn to forget when you wet your pants, but I don't think you can learn to forget the experience. You will feel the urge and it is at that moment you will always have to make a decision, do I let go, or do I hold back. Mika describes just how powerful that emotion can be and how long lasting it's effects are. Continence is a developmental function, not a learned one. I think one way might be to accept that your life now is just too busy and that peeing is an unwelcome interruption to your busy day. If you can believe that, you can see how diapers are the best solution. WOH

[nikole]

I think one way might be to accept that your life now is just too busy and that peeing is an unwelcome interruption to your busy day. If you can believe that, you can see how diapers are the best solution.

Sounds like this is an up-to-date idea for a new file

[wohermiston]

And I just finished it. Night and Day Part 2. Let me know what you think of it. WOH
https://www.warpmymind.com/index.php?ga ... e_id=11391

[childlike]

Thanks WOH. I downloaded and I'll give it a shot after the distractions of the day wind down. I'll let you know.